Author Topic: Lesson learned  (Read 8022 times)

Offline JTheotonio

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Lesson learned
« on: January 06, 2009, 08:20:00 AM »
Maybe you don’t take the School of the Boat too serious, or maybe you do.  But here is a lesson I just learned (again) at home.  It’s called always ask the “experts.”  :-[

I have a two story very old home.  It also has a full basement.  I heat 3 floors using a water boiler system.  Heated water goes through copper pipes around the baseboards in all three floors.  The system is divided into 3 separate zones so I am able to control the temperature on each floor.

Well Sunday night the second floor stopped working. It wasn’t noticeable (by me) when I got up, but the wife sure noticed and did not say anything to me.  Her usual method of getting this re-occurring problem to work is to beat (lightly) on the thermostat.  Yes, not good practice, but I cannot get her to stop doing that to the thermostat.

As she leaves for work around 1 pm, she finally tells me that there is no heat on the second floor and she was not about to sleep up there without heat.  So our oldest, also former Navy – though not a Submariner) and I started to trouble shoot this problem.  We started naturally at the beaten thermostat.  We went into the basement and started to purge that zone of air.  You see the day before we had a water main burst out near us and the township had to shut off all water.  OK, we did have air.  But the more we bleed this zone, the more air we got, and finally we got NO water.  Hum!

So call the neighbor over to see if he can come up with an idea.  We then started to bleed the other two zones – air and finally NO water.  OK now those two zones had been working.

We took the cover off the thermostat panel and verified that we got a signal from all 3 thermostats.  So even the beaten thermostat was working (so stop beating it Wifey).

Now the oldest and the neighbor were trying all sorts of things.  The one thing that I could not get the neighbor to keep in mind is that the boiler system also supplies hot water to the house and that was still working.  It is on a separate system through the holding tank.

All three zones are feed from common headers – both return and discharge.  So being a good Submariner I drew out the three zones with all valves, facets, check valves, and stop valves.  I was looking for a way to refill the system since we had pretty much drained it – there had to be a combination that I just could not see.  Set up the valves this way or that way – I just did not see a way to refill from the cold water feed from the street.

Finally – we three looked at each other and said it is time to call the expert.  While I called, the other two put everything back normal with all thermostats shut off so none of the circulators would be running.  The boiler was fine since we still had good hot water.

I got the plumber on the phone – a guy that worked on our system once before.  He said, as soon as I describe the original problem, that he knew exactly what was wrong – the cold water make up valve was bad.  He came out within 30 minutes, went down stairs and tried one simple test.  Yep that is your problem – I’ll be out in the morning and fix it.

But I need heat tonight? What am I to do?  He then said go get a washing machine hose and connect it from this facet to this facet (OK you may need pictures).  But simple to say that these facets were on the cold water line to the holding tank and the other was at the bottom of the boiler.  This will then pressurize the system and everything will be running again.

OK that was so simple – but the two facets just did not figure into my drawing – because I thought the one on the boiler was just to drain it for maintenance.

The water make up valve is a regulating valve that adds small quantities of water to the system and also to maintain the water pressure.  It has a small manual lift on it to open the valve manually.  All the plumber did was manually open the valve and by touching the discharge side knew the valve was stuck.  Since the discharge valve was hot – no cold water entered the system.  This is why we had no pressure or water.

So during any school of the boat we all try to become the experts.  But the experts really do know more than what is just found in the manuals. 

When you are out at your boats it is really important that you trace out each system that you are working on – after all you are the one that is becoming the expert.

Sorry for the long boring story – but a lesson learned – is always a valuable lesson. 
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Offline Lance Dean

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Re: Lesson learned
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2009, 09:19:29 AM »
That method of heating has always sounded fascinating to me.  Of course down here in the South we could never justify having such an elaborate heating system with our "mild" winters.  There are folks that do a similar thing as what you described, but they use a wood burning furnace to heat the water, and the water is moved around the house in pipes.

Just a note about that thermostat...we used to have one that just wouldn't want to switch on as easy as it should and we'd have to do the gentle tap thing.  Probably time to replace the thermostat.  We got a cheapy one from Home Depot that is programmable for like 4 or 5 different settings throughout the day (weekday) with a separate and independent Saturday and Sunday setting.  It's nice if you aren't home all the time.

Offline Mark Sarsfield

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Re: Lesson learned
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2009, 01:01:07 PM »
I've had pretty good luck with the cheap digital thermostats from Lowe's too.  I managed to wire it myself, even though the wire colors in the instructions weren't quite the same as what came out of the wall.

I definitely agree that plumbing and especially wiring need to be mapped out on these old boats.  Having an electrician "on board" is a bonus and an EM that went to sea is a bigger bonus.

Regards,
Mark Sarsfield
USS Batfish reenactor



"If you have one bucket that can hold 5 gallons and one bucket that can hold 2 gallons, how many buckets do you have?" - IQ test from Idiocracy

Offline JTheotonio

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Re: Lesson learned
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2009, 01:33:13 PM »
Remember the thermostat was not my problem - it was air in the system.

Yes - having any of the ratings on board your boats will be a plus.  And yes mapping out each system - whether working or not is needed. - A good idea is taking notes from these experts to add to your drawings.  Things that you do not find in the manuals or the fact that certain manuals may no longer be available means you need to get that knowledge from the experts.
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Offline Lance Dean

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Re: Lesson learned
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2009, 02:28:18 PM »
Remember the thermostat was not my problem - it was air in the system.

Yes John, but I was just sayin' that I believe thermostats get "sticky" after a while and sometimes take a little jarring to get them to come on.  It was getting old quickly back then. 

Offline JTheotonio

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Re: Lesson learned
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2009, 07:41:33 PM »
true ;D
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Offline Darrin

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Re: Lesson learned
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2009, 07:48:18 PM »
Thanks John for reminding us how much we actually need these "experts" when it comes to everyday things in life and that proves to be invaluable in the museum community (notice I didn't say just the submarine community) the museums that have a surface vessel or two have the same problem that we have but they have a bit more room to play with and people willing to fix their stuff.

EVERY submariner at one time or another had to physically draw each system from memory and be able to recite from memory where power went from anywhere on their boat to power a piece of equipment and for us nukie poo submariner's we had to know how to take a drop of salt water and be able to turn the screw and make the power come on and move the boat through the water without any support from a tug or tender along with how to make water and make pure air onboard the boat. My qual board was 3 1/2 hours of pure hell and with a page of "look ups" given to me by the qual board it was a very brutal process that I do not envy the submariner's of today to have to do. When I had to do the promotion boards for the Army I laughed after they were over (10-15 mins total) and they didn't ask anywhere close to the questions that were asked of me and my shipmates and I still laugh when people think that my dolphins were given to me upon completion of a school.

Offline JTheotonio

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Re: Lesson learned
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2009, 08:56:49 PM »
This is true - we were put under a lot of pressure (pun aside) when it came to qualifying.  Each boat was different and each Skipper demanded something more.  But it was not easy.  There is one very simple reason - at any time you could be caught somewhere and had to save the boat - which meant saving everyone.

We had clowns, we had guys that were a bit lazy, but come qual time - it was all business. My weakest compartment was maneuvering - but I still could answer the needed questions and preform when needed.

I love these guys with museum boats because they are tackling problems from many fronts.  Not only thinking about qualifying but also in the engineering and maintenance and manufacturing aspects of these beloved boats. When you have a good crew the pride shines.  Bless everyone who gets involved in preserving one of our submarines. (I now stand down off my soapbox) :angel:

True sea story - not to show the danger of riding a boat.  Picuda was on routine ops off Key West. Normal ops would have us do 5 plus dives a day.  I, young TM off watch, lay in my bunk in the Forward room.  Liberty was good the night before so I need sack time.  On our 2 or 3rd dive of the morning the collision alarm goes off and over the 1MC I hear "Flooding in the forward engine room - this is no drill."  The alarm was one that made anyone come awake instantly.  Before I could get out of my rack - I had the bridle suite - I was head down at a steep angle.  We broke the surface and things calmed down almost instantly.

Water tight doors were closed.  We were ready for the worst.  it turns out that the large capacity distiller's sea valve carried away.  We ended up with 6' of water in the forward engine room.  Two men were on watch there and took care of the problem.

For the rest of us it was a typical day at sea - no one even blinked because with had faith in those two guys and everyone in the control room.  I can say this event never bother me at all, nor anyone else that I know.  Brave, stupid, no it was knowing that each man knew his job.

Limped into port - fixed said valve - went out next morning and did a control drive - damn thing gave away again - now you  have a very pissed Skipper.  Poor yardbirds! :knuppel2:

Gentlemen enjoy your boats - but learn them too! ;D
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Offline Darrin

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Re: Lesson learned
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2009, 11:30:42 PM »
Seeing how I am not the only one with an OH SHIT!! and it really never hit them until later, I will say that I never worried about any of the crew's onboard the ships that I rode on...

There I was no shit (YES folks a REAL no shitter!!) on watch in the Torpedo Room on a first flight 688 outside of Pearl on the USS ahem (not gonna disclaim the hull number or her name seeing how she is still in service) and after firing her tubes certifiying them and doing all of the required dives and qual's after a shipyard period we were running drills in the Engine Room and then the shit literraly hit the fan....

As the TMOW I was required to be in constant comms with DC central (flooding in ASW bay for this drill) so I had the headphones on with the launch console spun up tight with weapons in the tubes with my head down on the launch console I heard the words come across the JA circuit that I NEVER wanted to hear... FLOODING in the Engine Room, knowing that we were running drills I laughed it off and told the LPO what was going on and reasonably went back to sleep (came off watch a few hours prior) when the POOO really hit the fan and the drill was secured due to REAL flooding in the MSW bay.

To this day I will never forget the CO coming over the 1MC securing the drill and moving the submersible pumps forward 1 bay so they could combat the Evaporator Hull Valve coming off (due to the wrong strength bolts being installed and over torqued)... So being nearly asleep my LPO slapped me in the back of the head when the CO came over the 1MC and told us what was going on because I hadn't told him what was really happening.. With a not so nice up angle we started to go to the surface when the CO decided to blow the EMBT (Emergency Main Ballast Tank) Blow... #4500 PSI going to ALL of the ballast tanks tend to be a great ride to the surface, and sadly this day it didn't work the way that it is supposed too. With that being said the line running fore and aft seperated at the Reactor and we had to secure the blow very quickly...

Now yours truly being nearly asleep is telling the folks in the room what is going on (color commentation at it's truly worst) and I didn't worry because I was with shipmates who knew what was happening and we had this covered (that and we were in only a few hundered feet of water) so I figured worse comes to worse the forward section of the boat was safe :2funny: 

SO any ways we were a few hundred feet underwater with flooding going on and the bouy was floated telling the world that we were in trouble... trucking slowly back to the surface the folks in Pearl scrambled everything to come and get our butt's out of trouble when we broached the surface.  Amazingly enough the closer to the surface the less water came into the hull :2funny:  We came into Pearl under tow (we never quit steaming, they were there just in case) when they moored us behind the floating drydock (after hitting 2 boats and pushing us UNDER the pilings at the pier)

That was my LAST underway on a 688 and that was 14 1/2 years ago, While I have been fortunate enough to step onboard a number of first flight 688's since then and was given full access to one of my former LT's boats I have yet to go back to the Engine Room to look at that valve one last time and put that memory away where it belongs... In the PAST.

It hit me after a half dozen or so beers at BEEMANS that night what had happened (and seeing that I was a rider I got to leave that boat!) how close we really came to being on the bottom.... Very few times since then have I really been worried after the fact that I was close to not coming home.. Some one above is watching and smiling on me and the folks that I have been honored to work with in dangerous situations ;)

Offline Lance Dean

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Re: Lesson learned
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2009, 12:10:21 AM »
Thanks for sharing these stories guys.  I like hearin 'em!

Offline Darrin

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Re: Lesson learned
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2009, 01:22:27 AM »
Lance,
While folks like to hear stories like that and what John put up it never let's up for the crew that was there, those stories find their way back to us and we set and recall what happend to us on USTAFISH and we hope and pray that another crew doesn't have to go through what we did.
While I was in Korea in '00 the Kursk sank and my command knew that I was a submariner and they asked what I thought had happend and I told them that the crew may have survived but the Russians wanted no help to save their crewmembers because dead men tell no tales.... Little did I know how true that guesstimate would be when she first sank :-[   Watching the video of her raising a few nights ago it became so clear that it was truly painfull to watch brothers of the deep suffer like that,  This year marks her 9th anniversary of her sinking and the loss of her crew and we only really know that she sank because of and explosion in her forward room where both John and I have set in US boats and many many others whom have come before and after us.. Would a US crew done something different??? for one we don't use that type of weapon and two... the only ones who truly know are no longer with us, we can all believe that that would have never happend on our watch but we will never know(which is a good thing right?)

Lessons learned....
"those whom forget the past are doomed to repeat it"

May our fallen sailors whom are still at sea on "eternal patrol" have fair winds and following sea's in their journeys and may they find peace in the ever after...........

Offline JTheotonio

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Re: Lesson learned
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2009, 08:33:53 AM »
Amen...
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Offline Mark Sarsfield

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Re: Lesson learned
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2009, 05:49:11 PM »
Have any of you cold war vets read "Blind Man's Bluff"?  I found it to be very fascinating.  Especially, the comments from sub vets when the book first came out.

Right now I'm starting to read "Red Star Rogue".  Thank God the rogue missile boat had the wrong launch codes or most of us wouldn't be here right now. Whew!   :P

Regards,
Mark Sarsfield
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