SUBMARINEMUSEUMS.ORG Forum
General Boards => Museum Submarine Discussion => Topic started by: Shipwreck on October 04, 2008, 01:08:05 PM
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So, let's talk FIRE.
I want to protect our submarine and future guests from one of my worst fears, fire. But I also want to preserve the historical aspects of the boat, while meeting local fire regulations. I would hate for anyone taking personal photos of what they believe to be 'the way it was' of the boat only to find all these red fire extinguishers dotting their pics upon development.
So, I wanted to ask other boats hwo they handle this. What type of fire fighting tools/plans/aspects do you have/use?
What about evacuation plans? In the event of a fire, do you have a plan in place for evacuating the boat?
These answers could help me a lot in my proposals. Thanks!
B
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Just an idea for the Batfish....
There are alot of places we could put the extinguishers and they not be in line of site. Kinda in the "back corners" of a compartment. Behind the bunks, engines, mess hall tables, etc. They are easily accessable but not like you said in every camera shot. Just an idea.
Oh and as for a evacuation plan...."If there is a fire....RUN!" ;D
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I agree with John...just make a map available showing where they are.
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Evacuation plan is easy - turn so NOT facing fire and RUN until you reach open hatch in either torpedo room - forward or aft!
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Depending on fire code maybe make the hatch in the Crews mess able to be opened. Not sure if we would want to do that but just an idea and a 3rd exit.
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Evacuation plan is easy - turn so NOT facing fire and RUN until you reach open hatch in either torpedo room - forward or aft!
Well, if you didn't see fire, you could easily run into the fire. The boat seems to suck air through it like a vacuum, pulling smoke along with it.
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Second clue to fire in a lot of smoke is heat - don't go towards the heat.
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Fire Code will have a lot to do with what will ultimately be decided, but this is something pretty important when you have a high visitor rate.
Truth be told, if any of yo have worked a tour - its like herding cattle through. If you remember, there is barely enough space for two people to pass, let alone a whole group!
So imagine a fire breaks out onboard - doesn't matter where - what are the implications? What to do? How to fight it? How to evacuate? Etc. etc. etc.
To post a sign 'You are Here" and evacuation arrows or such would probably look bad, but may be required by code. Hiding extinguishers behind bubks and such might be great unless the person who has to fight the fire is a visitor and not a staff or volunteer member, then they're left wondering where an extinguisher is. Taking on a fire might be the only way to give folks time to get out safely.
Would extinguishers be adequate? Should there be a fire suppression system? Perhaps a dry chemical system to cause less damage? The list goes on and on. I want to know what other boats have done or are doing? With the crazy electrical systems onboard and all the renovations constantly going on, fire is a REAL possibility. The ONLY ship ever constructed fireproof was the ocean liner SS United States - years later. So trust me, that sub will BURN if given the chance - or the spark.
So, what are other boats doing?
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Would extinguishers be adequate? Should there be a fire suppression system? Perhaps a dry chemical system to cause less damage? The list goes on and on. I want to know what other boats have done or are doing?
The ONLY person that can adequately and correctly answer these questions will be the local fire department. Our local fire codes may be different than other areas and what is required for them may be different for us. See if you can get them out next Saturday and go through the sub with you.
My 2 cents.
Mark A.
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Mark A. is correct the only person that can answer all of your questions about a fire on your boat and the local fire codes is your local fire dept, here are a few basic things that they will probably tell you what you can do in case of a fire on your boat.
In case of a fire what can you do???
1.) CALL 911
2.) Get EVERYONE out of the boat ASAP and do a head count of all visitors and vol's to make sure that all are off the boat
3.) IF 1 fire extinguisher didn't put the fire out DON'T try to be a hero and go back into the compartment for 1 more try, because you maybe come a casualty
4.) SECURE ALL ventilation to that compartment if possible and watertight doors (hopefully your boat will be water tight enough that it may smother the fire out due to lack of oxygen)
5.) IF it is an electrical fire secure the power to the boat ASAP
6.) Be prepared to talk the fireman through your boat.. What that means is IF they are not familiar with your boat and it is FULL of smoke (and yes even a small fire will fill it within seconds) and all power is off they will more then likely be disoriented quickly and then they will struggle to have to get your fire out.
7.) Ask Fire and Emergency services if they would like to come to your boat and do some training during theirs and yours slow times, everything from the general walk through with no gear on to having full gear on and a dark baggie put over their mask to simulate smoke and pulling the 1 1/2" lines through the boat (unpressurized) so they will have an idea of what they need to do in case of your boat being on fire.
With Holloween just around the corner you can get the fog machines for next to nothing and they do not leave any residue when used, see IF you can get permission to bring one onboard and "smoke out" a compartment...... This will show you and the rest of your volunteers how fast your boat will go from being able to see everything to barely able to see your hand in front of your face in a matter of a minute (depending on how much ventilation you have running and how tight your boat is and obviously what compartment you are using. I recommend using the After engine room because of the size of the compartment and you do have a hatch to open so you can ventilate the compartment relatively easily with just a box fan laying across the hatch pulling it all out.
While I am no longer qualified Fire 1&2, I have been on a submarine full of smoke and it was not fun at all and I WAS qualified on that boat and knew were everything was and had a operational fire main onboard and it was still a struggle and luckly no one got hurt because the immediate actions did put the fire out and after the reflash watch was set we ventilated the boat out and we stayed at sea and had it all cleaned up by the time we got into port.
My .02 cents worth
Darrin
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To Shipwreck- Once we get the high volume of patrons hopefully we will have tour guides or the like with the patrons and trained in what to do.
Darrin's idea of using a fog machine I think is a good idea. We already have some extinguishers on the boat, but using a fog machine would be a great way to see what we are up against. I think if I fire did break out on the boat though that it wouldn't be anything big. No much on the boat can burn. But then again weirder things have happened.
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We could definitley recreate a fire with fog and by killing the lights with only flashlights and emergency lighting operational. Currently our water tight doors are locked open. I understand the want to do that (in case someone breaks a hand on a door slamming on them), but for a fire, sealing off the doors and ventilation makes sense. We should probably zip-tie the doors open, but with a weak enough zip-tie that a good yank will break the plastic.
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I don't know why you are so concerned about hiding fire extinguisers. The boats had them (at least in the 60's and 70's) and they were usually in plain sight. Dry chemical would be best, CO2 - forget it, not good for sustaining life in confined spaces (like submarines). If you are concerned about fire plans, consider installing a PA system. On most boats the 1MC is OOC, so run some cabling (it can be hidden behind or in cableways) and some speakers (they can also be hidden in places where they can still be heard). The PA can be used to alert visitors to evacuate and how.
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We're working on a new PA system and I agree that we should use the existing exinguisiher holders - I posted that somewhere else. Using dry chemicals is a good point, since you don't want to asphyxiate the crew with CO2.
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This is a first hand account of the USS Bonefish (SS 582) that caught fire in 1988, the compartments that were on fire reached 1200 degrees and to put that into perspective it WARPED the bulkheads it was so hot...
A Crewmember's Recollection of the Fire in 1988
The report below was contributed by QM2/SS Richard (Rick) Neault, U.S. Navy Ret. It is dedicated to the three men who gave their lifes aboard the USS Bonefish (SS 582).
At the time of the accident I was on watch in the control room. I was a Quartermaster and at the time was a third class (Qm3/ss). We were operating with the USS Carr (FFG 52) and the JFK (CV 67) doing war games. The Carr had asked us to go deep to commence an operation, we were at periscope depth (PD). We started to go down to 250ft and the boat took on a down angle. At that time, the maneuvering room called up and said they had lost the ground on the battery well. The officer of the deck (OOD) told them to wait until we reached depth and then send a man into the well to see what was wrong. After we had reached 250ft, a man was sent into the battery well to find the problem when he then called out fire in the berthing spaces. The battery well is located under the berthing spaces. From there it gets kinda foggy for me as I did not monitor the phone communications. About 15 minutes after the fire alarm was sounded, there was a loud bang and the boat began to shudder. Instantly the boat filled with smoke. VERY thick and heavy black smoke. It came rushing into the control room and filled the room in about a second. By then the CO had already ordered us to PD, but when the smoke filled the compartment, the CO ordered an emergency blow. We surfaced, unfortunately the OOD was not wearing an emergency air breathing device (EAB). He was unable to get the hatch open and unfortunately succumbed to smoke inhalation. His name was Lt. Ray Everts. A quick side note, all three of the men who died in the fire were fairly new onboard. I had just had a conversation with Lt. Everts about the Quartermaster division on the Bone. He said that we were the best Qm division he had worked with thus far in his Navy career. He was a good guy. After we had surfaced, we were eventually able to get the control room hatch open and start one of the diesels. We used it to suck the smoke out of the compartment. The men fighting the fire were trying to get to the flames. Unfortunately, the fire was in the insulation that was located behind the walls in the berthing compartment. We would have had to remove the bunks and then the walls in order to get to it. They sure tried though. After we had been surfaced for about 15 minutes there was another loud bang and once again the compartment filled with heavy smoke. This time it flamed out the engine and aparently it had melted through an air line. At that point the CO realized that the fire was now being fed by this air line and the only thing left to do was to abandon ship and lock down the hatches and hope it burned itself out. Unfortunately, Robert (Bob) Bordelon (RM1/ss) had some sort of medical emergency (heart attack??) in the radio room and was already unconscious. YN3 Todd Lindgren was at the midships hatch waiting for his turn to go topside when he snapped (freaked out) and disappeared into the smoke. The Doc tried to locate him but was unable to due to the smoke. He was 20 years old, old enough to die for his country, but too young to buy a beer. RM1 Bordelon was less than a year from retirement. The official cause of the fire was an electrical short across the battery bus ties that eventually caught the insulation on fire. The Garbage Disposal Unit (GDU) in the crews mess had a leaky valve. That valve had apparently been leaking for some time and the salt water ate through the decking into the battery well. When we made our angle to go down to 250ft, the water that had pooled poured into the well and caused arching and sparking and from there it is now history. Had there been an explosion due to the buildup of hydrogen gas (as some sub experts claimed), you wouldn't be reading this because I would be dead. Several of the crew of the Bone have been subsequently retired from the Navy for various reasons, including myself. Mainly because of the rumor and speculation surrounding the accident. Unfortunately, those of us who wanted the subs to be our career have had a hard time readjusting to civilian life. It isn't that we were blamed by the Navy, its just that crews on board other boats felt that we didn't do enough to save our shipmates, even though they were not there to actually be aware of what happened.
This post was not to meant to make anyone sad or depressed or even mad, I posted it to show the readers here that tragedy's do happen and that a fire on a submarine is nothing to joke about or try to be a super hero in trying to put the fire out especially if you don't have any kind of breathing apparatus on.
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It's an excellent post. I guess superstition still runs through the modern Navy.
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And that was with an entire trained crew! Man!
All of this is great info and discussion and I think it importnat that we think like this. I wasn't trying to come off as chicken little by the way, just in case my comments seemed like that. Fire is my WORST fear and I like to avoid it if at all possible.
As for the fire department, coming out would be a good idea and I am certain they would appreciate at least two drills a year on the boat for training. Firemen love that kind of stuff and a sub is a great challenge. I also agree with the ABC extinguishers as that is the least expensive choice too. I would love to be able to close the hatches by a zip tie could be snapped just as easily by someone fancying to close the hatch. I would think someting more along the lines of a carbiner or something that would hold a yank or two by curious folks. It would also behoove us to make sure they all work/secure properly too. A fire drill would be an awesome thing for the BLHA to experience next time we stay on the boat. Fog machine and all.
Darrin, THANK YOU for your list too - some great things! I would love for us to eventually have a fire control plan book, etc. Thank you everyone for your help on this topic!
So, on the 18th this is just one more thing Rick and I will be discussing.
BTW, I don't recall seeing one, but surely there is a fire hydrant somewhere nearby the boat. Any of the Batfish gang remember one?
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I just thought of this, be weary on calling the FD for them to inspect. Maybe this is me just worrying for no reason, but if we are so out of code or what have you they try to close the sub? :-[
Just an idea....maybe they will come in and just tell us what needs to be done and not "grade" us.
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My worries too, hence trying to keep it low key. But we will have to call on them soon, regardless. As for maybe out of code - I'm trying to determine how a WWII sub can be in code - I see a challenge (probably expensive one) ahead.
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BTW, I don't recall seeing one, but surely there is a fire hydrant somewhere nearby the boat. Any of the Batfish gang remember one?
Sorry Bradley - I can't seem to recall one being there...but I haven't been looking for one either. Rick???
but if we are so out of code or what have you they try to close the sub?
Good question John. I don't know if the annual Navy inspection takes that into consideration or not. Rick - under what jurisdiction would that fall? City or Navy?
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There is a hydrant on the very edge of the front of the museum property near the pole gate. It's a long distance from the boat and the firemen have several obstacles to navigate with a hose just to reach the stern.
I wonder what the vets did for a fire plan 35 years ago when they opened for business?
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Ya the hydrant is a stretch but they can use it at the boat. (Thats how we filled the pond after making it ^_^)
As far as Jurisdiction I would ask the Navy first, then the locals. It would take the Navy a longer time to try and shut us down than the locals. Thats in a worst case scenario though. I have to agree, how can a WW2 boat be up to code? But I think that as long as we have extiguishers there, 2-3 exits, and keep cooking to a minimum we will be all right.
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The vets 35 years ago probably didn't have a plan. That just wasn't the thinking then. Nothing meant toward the vets - I mean in general, folks just didn't think like that then. Fire plans were like the last thing on people's minds, especially when it came to something like a WWII sub.
I may have to include the installation of two fire plugs to our boat and building too in the proposal. That wouldn't be a bad idea. The further the plug the longer the fire rages. Plus, I don't really know what the Muskogee fire department is capable of handling when it comes to our site. Wow - what a lot to think on,
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To answer your question about being up to today's fire codes?????? :2funny: Does NAVSEA know this????? yes they do and I have been told that Torsk was "grandfather claused" because of her age and I ass/u/me that it is that way for the rest of the boats that are museums.
One more really cheap and safe thing to buy is reflective tape to go on your bulk head flappers for your ventilation system (use different colors to show open or shut if possible if unable to then make those 1 color only and then the rest of these items a different color please) and then for your water tight doors and finally for your trip hazards or areas that are difficult for a large person to get around (i.e. FER between the KLINGENSMIDT evap and the fwd part of F/M#1 going into the after battery head). The reason behind this is IF you loose power and your emergency lights come on you and your vols/tourists will be able to find there way out without beating themselves to death and two when or IF you use your fog machine you and F&ES will be able to see going in and out and IF you weren't able to shut the ventilation off they hopefully will be able to do so just by telling them to look for the RED or whatever colored reflective tape on the bulkhead at specific places through the boat.
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With new wiring on the boat (hopefully) our chances of an electrical fire will be minimal.
Speaking of cooking, we should look into getting someone to clean out all of the ventilation ducts. 60 years of grease, mold, dust, etc. is growing in that stuff. The filter in the stove hood vent looks really nasty, too.
The ventilation doors will take some work. Currently, some of the openings are used for speaker wiring. The wire needs to be rerouted and the doors need some TLC.
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It would be simple to put together a plan and a training program for each boat (can be pretty generic depending on what you have). A simple document would help each boat develop a plan. I can help so let me know.
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John,
because YOU are my friend and fellow TM ;) and because you have inadvertanly volunteered for that mission :2funny:
I charge you with teaching the SCHOOL OF THE BOAT for 7 Oct 2008.......... and Officially I am going to SUSPEND all of the school of the boat classes that were not completed (225 PSI operation) until SUBMARINE DAMAGE CONTROL is completed
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Hey SHIPWRECK, you weren't being chicken little on this issue and don't hesitate to ask questions here about a submarine because I am SURE that there is someone who will answer your questions :knuppel2:
And I did the same thing when the K-77 (Juliette 484) sank in Providence, Rhode Island sank.... That to me was an eye opener to ALL of the boats still in the water, part of me to this day wonders IF I was able to help save another boat.... and yes I do believe that I helped inadvertantly save one or more of our boats so that future generations can see them..
Torsk after that was able to acquire and get running a complete P-100 and all associated hoses to go with that to de-water the boat from topside IF needed (GOD forbid) and I know that others have re-looked at their DC plans.
And sadly enough I had yet to cover anything to do with fire and flooding during the school of the boat because DEEP DOWN, I HATE fires onboard a submarine.. I can fight fires all day long in a barn or a building or a house but NOT being able to leave your home that is on fire to this day scares the living heck out of me and watching the compartments around you go from being crystal clear to the point of barely able to see your hand infront of your face is disturbing as hell to me.
Flooding, I have lived through it and honestly IF a boat that I was on had flooded and I was in the rack I would have never KNOWN if the boat IMPLODED because they don't take too much at deep depths. The last time we weren't too deep (150' maybe) and the hull valve blew off on the evaporator due to the shipyard screw ups and being on watch in the Torpedo Room during a drill it wasn't a big thing because they at the time were running a drill in the compartment AFT of it and once the valve blew off they shifted the training to the real thing and went at it.. Obviously we made it to the surface and it took a while and a failed EMBT blow (busted line) but obviously it surfaced because the crew of that boat (along with me) are still here..
Many people have forgotten that these museum submarines are true warships and they can and will kill you if you let them... A lot of people don't understand what they actually did other then to make them look pretty and tell their stories and I HOPE that they NEVER find out what happens in case of an emergency onboard their boat. ANd no Paul I wasn't busting your chops (others are involved and not just you)
I cannot stress it enough that Damage Control starts with the basics.... LEARN your boat and then learn how to handle ANY situation that comes across your plate in regards to Damage Control within reason.
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OK Darrin, I will work on a question or two for DC - big concern on any boat is responding to an emergency. On the surface is somewhat different that submerged. Sooo maybe questions will be with both in mind. Knowing that TM's are far more knowledgeable in DC - we shall see what others can do. I shall throw down the gauntlet!
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Picuda was out on standard ops in the Dry Tortuga's off Key West circa 1965. About the second or third dive of the day we had the collusion alarm go off - "Flooding in Forward Engine Room" I, being a good TM was laying in my bunk in the bridal suite in the Forward Torpedo Room - emergencies are a quick way to wake a person up - by the time I got right we were at a 29 degree up angle heading for the surface. On top, we got a report of 6 feet of water in the forward engine room and pumping had commenced. When dry we found that the small Model X 1,000 vapor compression distilling unit sea valve failed. (CO was pissed)
We went into port and had "yard birds" work all night fixing the valve. We went out the next day and our first drive was controlled. Well about 60 feet that damn valve failed again - more flooding only not as bad. (CO was more than pissed)
So we went back and the "yard birds" got an ear full and worked again all night. Next day it way OK.
What do you get from my story? Well life hangs in a balance when riding boats. It therefore depends on good training in all emergencies to help mitigate a situation that perils the boat and your life.
As a young 19 year old I never thought about it - just do!
What's the main point of qualifying? Well it boils down to JUST DO! Because it is your life and the saving of everyone else. As we train for submarine duty we understand the risks and we know the results of failure of anyone of us to know what to do. I knew of no one on the Picuda or Von Steuben that made me worry about my life.
Museum boats are no different, in fact maybe they are different because we have civilians on board and they do not know what to do in an emergency. So you must be able to act and react for those who may panic and get in your way.
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JT,
I WILL hold you to the finest traditions of being a TM and knowing more then most about Damage Control then most because we dealt with floodings, fire and what in the hell do we do with a weapon that has burst open(i.e. dropped or had something penetrate the casing) during movent and the weapon put EXPLOSIVES on the deck..
One of my favorite drills on a 688 was moving a weapon from the port side to the starboard side and the hydraulics line ruptured at the drain cock.. and then spewed hydraulics into the launch console and from there a FIRE on the starboard side of the room with weapons involved.
Immediate action taken was to secure ALL of the hydraulics in the room and then start to cool the weapons IF any on the starboard side of the room with one hose (starboard aft) and then use the Port side FWD hose to put out the fire. Reason behind that drill was to get us to think outside of the box and to make us think about how to successfuly fight a fire in the fwd AND aft part of the room on one side. (that used to be a TRE ooohly in Pac fleet in the early 90's)
Side note about the Mk 48 and it's little brother the Mk 48 ADCAP (or should I say the little brother on steroids?) when it got too hot the vent valve would release and it would blow otto fuel out to release the pressure so that it would not explode (and it needs NO air to combust)... One of the biggest things giving an OTTO fuel spill was the HEADACHE that went with it and the need for fresh air and no matter how much coffee was give or asprin it wouldn't go away until ALL of the otto fuel was cleaned up...
Witnessed a Mk 48 vent OTTO fuel once topside on a 688 and the fire dept was called and they wouldn't touch the thing because they were AFRAID of it... a number of us TM's laughed at them and brought the hoses we were using to load potable at the time from the pier and cooled the damned thing down until it quit venting ;) and then went about our business. :2funny:
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Accepted sir!
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SIR?? What flip over?? is my dad or an Officer behing me ;)
I will be watching along with the rest of this crew and hopefully learning something from another TM who is well versed in the art of Damage Control
Good luck JT, if'n ya need anything email me and I will gladly help ya out ;)
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ok - hum! I must of had an extra martini tonight to refer to you as SIR - me being another TM must of had too much Pink Lady! Ha!
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A TM drinking too much pink lady :2funny: :2funny:
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Thanks guys!
Hey - you know what might be a good idea - what if we all created a Basic Fire Control Plan based on our experiences with our boats? This way, perhaps all of the subs could benefit in some way and at the very least have a skeleton plan to work with for heir particular needs.
We could also determine what things like type of extinguisher is best for use on our museum boats, etc.
Just an idea. Whadya think?
Then we could generate some training scenarios - like the one with the fog machine - that we could implement on the boats. Since the training would be somewhat uniform it could possibly identify faults, etc and again help all the museum subs.
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Lots of conversation on this one. For the Batfish both the Navy inspecotrs and the Fire Marshal have some say in this. Fortunately the Fire Marshal is working with us on this issue. Every year he makes recomendations and we are required to fulful them. All of he fire extinguisheres are in place per the Fire Marshals request. We do have a fire plane in place. The Navy is responsible for makeing sugestions to help keep the boat safe and looking good. I can talk more about specifics off line.
Rick
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We have had the fire department aboard to look things over and check fire extinguishers. The official repsonse from them is that it's the Coast Guards responsibility to determine safety of boats and ships. The Coast Guard says it's the Fire Department's job. So, we fall through the cracks.
Darrin brought up a very good point and that is that you should have some sort of emergency lighting aboard. We use battle lanterns and some civilian style emergency lights. We have also rigged the ships emergency lights to operate off a battery using a normally-closed relay. This system is temporarily OOC because we changed the battery recently.
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I would like see the battle lanterns get serviced and be operational again in each compartment. We have plenty of them and most of them just need batteries. It's a pain to switch out batteries every 6 months or so, but it could save lives. The only concern would be visitors playing with the lanterns and leaving them on.
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Chief Mike and crew went through all of ours and replaced all of the batteries (6volt brick lantern batteries sold at walmart) and then tied them into the electrical system for emergency power running off of our batteries that we have in the LLAB. We also have building emergency lights scattered through the boat hidden out of the sight of the tourists that are another great back up because you can NEVER have too much light when you lose power... Can you Chief Mike??
An unnamed volunteer and I learned that one the hard way during a strip ship here in James River Reserve fleet when we were on the Ex- USS SUNBIRD at the end of a very long day when I remembered that there was a gyro repeator that looked like new and we needed one at the time, SO this vol and I went below decks into the AFT Steering part of the ship and when we got the damned compass off our flashlights went dead... With that being said and NEITHER one of us were familiar with the layout of that boat with no power at all and with it being dark as all get out we had to feel our way out of the lower part of the ship using a lighter and hoping that we didn't set anything on fire in the process.
We survived that day to laugh and tell it as an old sea story about things NOT to do during a strip ship without extra lights or batteries in your pockets, that holds true to a museum submarine with no power and tourists and voluteers alike.. Once the power goes off it is a completely different world down there and you need to light it up for all to see so they can get out
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Wow - there is another drill of sorts we could do - experience the boat in a complete blackout. Man we are gonna have fun on our next weekend in the boat next year - eh skipper?
LOL
::)
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We did that (ie blackout) one work day, by accident...blew the transformer...with people in the aft battery. This was years ago before any emergency lighting and before Vaughn "re-wired" the boat. Fortunately I was on the outside...and the one's inside didn't have flashlights. The funny thing is we didn't know we had blown the transformer and didn't realize they were in the aft battery in the dark.
It's funny now.
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this is not a plesant esperience. I walked through one day with the lights out just to see how easy it was. I had a flashlight with me and the emergency lights turned on. it is not going to happen very easliy. Currently the procedure is for the counter person to go down with a flash light to escourt anyone on board off the moment a power failure is detected. Ideally each compatment needs some type of light source. There are several battle lanterns in house for use. We still need a write up on the power system down there. Right now any work being done is a shot in the dark...
Rick
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Guys, every compartment should have at least two emergency lights in them. That should provide sufficient light for finding your way out on a loss of power. The boats in the WWII config can wire commercially available emergency lights in inconspicuous places. I don't think those old WWII battle lanterns could be relay actuated. The boats in the post-snorkel configurations can use the yellow battle lanterns. Those had relay actuators and push-to-test buttons. Tourists can't leave them on. We hard-wired them into receptacles or power panels so they would come on automatically when the power went off. We periodically check them, but they do not need new batteries every six months. The batteries hold up pretty well unless someone messes with them (we've had visitors attempt to steal them and in the process pull the wires from the panels). I'm surprised your fire marshalls have not required you to put in emergency lights.
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SHHHHHH.....
We do have 3. I would like to see more and less conspicous. and ones that i do not have to turn on every day.
Rick
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Thanks guys!
Hey - you know what might be a good idea - what if we all created a Basic Fire Control Plan based on our experiences with our boats? This way, perhaps all of the subs could benefit in some way and at the very least have a skeleton plan to work with for heir particular needs.
I think this is a fantastic idea, especially given that we know that fire/flooding casualties have occured on museum ships. A checklist on the proper things that need to get done with discussion would be a good start. I'm way overbooked for the next few weeks, but I'll see what I can pull together from this discussion.
Brian
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I am a little late jumping in on this, been kind of busy.
The Drum has three dry chemical extinguishers, emergency lighting that comes on with power failure, two fire hose connections on deck with hoses and nozzles under sail. Glow in the dark arrows showing the way to nearest exits, flash lights in each compartment in lockers that the crew can get too. The extinguishers are in plain sight and should be, there are only so many concessions that should be made for history. You have to remember that the majority of people on board at any time haven't a clue as to where they are, which way is out or how to fight a fire. We have had boy scouts set of the extinguishers on the boat and the Battleship, those packs have not been invited back.
The best thing to do is prevention. Don't let used rags pile up, keep oil out of the bilges, look for any flamables of any kind near transformers and old shaky wiring. Practice going thru the boat with no lights of any kind and se if you can find flash lights, battle laterns, etc.
The Navy inspection is focused on visitor safety and they should have commented on your fire safety and lighting.
Tom
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We have addressed the issues that the Navy Inspectors and fire inspectors have pointed out. I am not 100% comfortable with the current setup however. I think that there is more that we can do to make the boat safer and keep the historical aspect of the boat as well.
Rick
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The extinguishers are in plain sight and should be, there are only so many concessions that should be made for history. You have to remember that the majority of people on board at any time haven't a clue as to where they are, which way is out or how to fight a fire. We have had boy scouts set of the extinguishers on the boat and the Battleship, those packs have not been invited back.
I think that's a different question - Is it a fire extinguisher, a historic artifact or both? Each boat will have its own answer. Personally, I like the idea of using modern fire extinguishers, but paint them bright orange, place them out of the way and train on where they are. Leave artificats alone.
Brian
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I thought of this, it's just a idea so I'll throw it out.
What did they use back in WW2? Primitive extinguishers? If so, create a period looking shell for our modern extinguishers and problem solved. Then it is both a functional extinguisher and a artifact.
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... Personally, I like the idea of using modern fire extinguishers, but paint them bright orange, place them out of the way and train on where they are...
Can you safely protect yourself legally with orange fire extinguishers? I figured they were required by some kind of code to be a certain color, sort of like fire hydrants. I don't know.
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If I recall, much older fire extinguishers had a wheel on top and had to be turned upside down to operate. Here are a few pictures. None show one from a WWII sub
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I think this is where we just have to make the more logical and safer choice. Frankly, I think that folks are so use to seeing regular extinguishers that to have them on our boat wouldn't be intrusive. They'd be seen but not seen. I am opposed to 'hiding' them too. Museum staff wouldn't necessarily be the one to fight the fire. If a patron came across a fire, why prevent them from grabbing an extinguisher too? You'd be surprised who all would have the gumption to fight the fire.
I also think we should incorporate within our plan a fire drill and training on the use of extinguisers etc. Perhaps we can arrange this simutaneously with our local fire dept training on the boat. Just some thoughts.
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The fire department is always willing to help. I'd just be careful that it doesn't turn into a full blown fire inspection.
Another thought - do you have any oil refineries or processing plants nearby? All refineries have their own fire departments and do a lot of training on specific types of fires and enclosed spaces. They have their own facilities. So does the fire department. Maybe your volunteers could go to them for training at their facilities instead of doing it on the boat.
Creating evacuation and fire fighting plans is not all that hard when you are talking about 315' long space. One part of any plan should be the periodic inspection of the entire boat from top to bottom, stem to stern, including topside.
One person or two on staff should be assigned as your own fire marshals/safety inspectors, who conduct the inspections. Prevention is a key to any emergencies. The fire department should be helpful with respects to what and how to conduct inspections.
I don't know if this actually happens, but tourists may discard paper, napkins, or anything by stuffing their trash behind something. You see this everywhere (stores, movie theaters, museums, etc.) The fire department is always willing to help. I'd just be careful that it doesn't turn into a full blown fire inspection.
Another thought - do you have any oil refineries or processing plants nearby? All refineries have their own fire departments and do a lot of training on specific types of fires and enclosed spaces. They have their own facilities. So does the fire department. Maybe your volunteers could go to them for training at their facilities instead of doing it on the boat.
Creating evacuation and fire fighting plans is not all that hard when you are talking about 315' long space. One part of any plan should be the periodic inspection of the entire boat from top to bottom, stem to stern, including topside.
One person or two on staff should be assigned as your own fire marshals/safety inspectors, who conduct the inspections. Prevention is a key to any emergencies. The fire department should be helpful with respects to what and how to conduct inspections.
Something else to consider use a check out/check in process whenever using something such as cleaning products and paint. Account for any flammable substance going on the boat so that nothing is left behind.
I don't know if this actually happens, but tourists discard paper, napkins, or anything by stuffing their trash behind something. You see this everywhere (stores, movie theaters, museums, etc.)
As for fire extinguishers - I'd prefer they are good, useable, and easy to find. If you want to display originals OK, but a modern extinguisher would be safer.
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John,
To answer your question about people dropping their papers,trash, cell phones in the bilges.. yes it does happen and while I could say that I have field dayed our bilges on the Torsk I would be lying to you. Yes I have been in the FER and AER bilges and removed some of the trash but it is an on going project that needs to be done. I don't know if any of the boats have a MSDS book made up or not, it is one of the things that we do inspect in the Industrial Hygiene side of DPW and that is a big hit if they are missing the data sheets for all of the chemicals that they have in their buildings. IF you do have that book already made up where is it stored at and who has access to it?? I have always been told that it should be accessable to all and centeralized in location to the building or for a submarine maybe at the docents shack or at the ticket booth that way IF there is a fire or the boat smokes out for some reason the F&ES will be able to review what is known to be onboard.
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Do I have a book - no
Where should it be located - that typically is agreed upon with the fire department - as they will need it in a hurry. The ticket booth or docents shack are probably good choices. Remember after hours too. What will happen if something catches fire after smoldering all day and it is now after hours? So maybe you do need to get more involvement with the FD.
Here's a general question for all boats. Do any have smoke detectors? Do any boats have security alarms (ADT comes to mind)? If so at what level are these detectors and security alarm in use? Alarm companies call FD and Police?
I think a lot of good will come from this discussion.
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Going on what JTheotonio was saying, Georgia Pacific has their own Fire Department and EMT's.
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Here's a general question for all boats. Do any have smoke detectors? Do any boats have security alarms (ADT comes to mind)? If so at what level are these detectors and security alarm in use? Alarm companies call FD and Police?
I think a lot of good will come from this discussion.
I'm ashamed to say it but in all the discussion, I didn't even consider smoke alarms. Hell these can be aquired as a donation. But will the faint Diesel 'smell' set them off? Would Carbon Dioxide detecters be usefull onboard?
As for this discussion doing some good - MAAANNNN have I learned a lot. The great things about 'round table' type discussions is having folks voice questions and thoughts you never would have imagined from the perspective you are working. This topic has certainly been heaven sent for me. My proposal keeps changing though :-\ LOL!
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The diesel smell won't set of smoke detectors.
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Would Carbon Dioxide detecters be usefull onboard?
Carbon Dioxide detectors?
If you meant Carbon Monoxide detectors, I can't believe they'd be useful in any way unless there was some type of propane/natural gas being used on the boat. If your system is all electric, I don't know why carbon monoxide detection would matter.
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With the alarms and I should have mentioned this one first...
For the boats that are still in the water they need to test ALL of their bilge alarms on a regular basis and check to make sure that that system is operational at all times and fix or replace the sending units as necessary because I would hate to see another K-77 incident with one of our remaining WWII boats.
Smoke alarms are a great idea and while I hate to be a devils advocate on this one, who is going to hear them going off after hours?? I don't know if you can work a deal out with your local security companies to see if they will give you a reduced price to maintain a fire/flooding/security system on a historic landmark and beg and plead to see if they will do it at no cost to the organization because a number of our boats are being maintained by mostly the volunteer groups. And if that doesn't work see if the people who actually hold the "title" to the boat will pay for those services to be added to the boat so that ALL of the hard work of countless volunteer hours over the years will not be lost in a fire or flooding and be sure to mention that it may be a discount on THEIR insurance costs.
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Monitoring is certainly something I am proposing along with mini security cam installation, etc. One of the problems we occassionaly have with a staff of ONE is that there are times when NO ONE is on the boat - even guests. So a camera system could help with a visual glance at each compartment in such a case. Of course it also comes in handy when folks are on the boat. I want to set it up so that administrators can access the system via the internet and even check on the boat after ours. So if ADT calls for example, we can log in and 'see' what's happening real time. Anyhoot - thanks for the GREAT discussion and thoughts! You have NO IDEA how much I appreciate all of the input this topic has been given. :2funny:
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Perhaps a repeater system with a flashing emergency light topside? It would be more expensive to outfit.
As to CO2 / CO detectors, I don't think they're necessary. You do need to consider gas-safe reentry procedures if there is a fire. How long will it take for ventilation method X to change out the air, how will you sample for gases, etc. On modern boats, they use hand held units for sampling. Does anyone know a civilian source?
I am working all this into a document that I'll publish in a few weeks. So far I'm at 10 pages with quite a bit left to fill in.
Brian
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Damage control - what are the conditions of your bulkhead flapper valves? Before you go venting the submarine, and let's say there is a fire still going, you may be feeding the fire more O2. The compartment should be isolated if possible including shutting the bulkhead flapper valves on the main supply line. Flapper valves are located at both ends of a compartment (except which ones?), and can be operated by hand from either side of the bulkhead.
If you can no longer fight the fire in a compartment - get out and isolate the compartment.
So did everyone get the pop quiz? What compartments do not have a bulkhead flapper valve at both ends?
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JT,
Only a TM would ask that question ;)
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And you know why...but do others
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:2funny: :2funny:
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I'm assuming the torpedo rooms have the bulkhead flapper valves.
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I agree, I would say the Torpedo rooms since they are at the end. But then again, thats where the fricken bombs are. Fire would be a big no no there even more so. I would say the crews quarters and mess. On the Batfish those rooms don't have dogs to make it air tight.
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bomb's we don't need no stinkin bomb's!!!! Torpedo's and Mines YES but bombs...... NAH ;)
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Torpedoes go boom, bombs go boon, mines go boom. Some are just prettier than others. ;)
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Ok folks let me rephrase my earlier answer, yes we do need bombs onboard and that is when those kids who like to swim underwater and jump out of airplanes for no good reason other then to make stuff go boooooom.. Now on the nuke boats the O2 Gen set has been called a bomb for more then a few reasons so I guess you could count that one also
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Bombs - we don't need no stinkin' bombs!
Yes in fact on the Fleet Submarine we only have a single bulkhead flapper valve - because at the pointy ends of the sub there are no bulkheads. So there will be one going between Forward Battery and Forward Torpedo Room, and Maneuvering and the After Torpedo Room.
Now there is one other place which does not have a bulkhead flapper valve between compartments. No, you cannot count the Conn!
So dig a bit more... :knuppel2: