Messages

1

USS Blueback (SS-581) / Recent visit to OMSI and USS Blueback

« on: May 03, 2016, 04:36:35 PM »

A month ago I spotted a low airfare from the east coast to Portland, Oregon and decided it was time to visit my last submarine in the continental US...

While OMSI (Oregon Museum of Science and Industry) is very much a children's museum with lots of "play" exhibits and a mediocre planetarium, their display and interpretation of USS Blueback is first-rate. The submarine is permanently moored on the Willamette River. Its propeller is displayed on-shore near the sub. This is a relatively modern submarine, said to have been the last diesel-electric sub in the USN when it was de-commissioned in 1990. It's a "diesel Skipjack" or perhaps a "Tang in an Albacore suit". Its interior fittings remind me of Growler and Nautilus but unlike those boats, everything is open, and tours are live. The tour/interpretation was professional and entertaining and easily among the very best that I have encountered.

Unusually, this sub still has its batteries, and as an old thread here notes, they use an "Energizer Bunny" as a talking point for discussion of the batteries. The periscopes are fixed in position, trained on the Portland skyline, and visitors can take a peek. The museum makes effective use of recorded sound effects to suggest the sound of life aboard vessel. Some of this is obvious enough, like the thundering noise designed to give a hint of the roar of the diesel engines. Other effects are subtle, like the sound of dishes clunking and banging as if someone is washing up in the galley --a simple thing yet compelling.

Blueback had about fifteen seconds of pop-culture fame, appearing briefly in an episode of "Hawaii Five-O" in the late 1960s and also briefly in "The Hunt for Red October". By the way, the class boat (of three), USS Barbel, appeared briefly (but full-screen!) in an episode of "The Brady Bunch" in 1972, where it was identified as a "nuclear submarine".

I highly recommend a visit to USS Blueback if you make it out to Portland. It's 45 minutes well-spent. I would suggest skip the rest of OMSI and get another technology "fix" by driving an hour to the Evergreen Aviation & Space Museum, a world-class museum that houses the famous 'Spruce Goose'. And yes, it really is huge.

I have now visited all of the museum subs that are currently open to the public in the continental US. I intend to add HMCS Onondaga to that total this summer so I can claim "all in North America" :). It has been a fun project. Subs are good, clean fun and also because they are remarkably well spread out around the country: some 22 submarines in 15 states. Visiting a sub museum takes half an hour, sometimes an hour, rarely even two or three hours, leaving a day or a weekend to explore. And what better excuse would I ever have to visit North Little Rock, Arkansas or Manitowoc, Wisconsin, or Hackensack, New Jersey?? There is enormous variety among the subs both in terms of the intentions of the display and the quality and the style. Some are treated as memorials, others nearly private clubs, and many are major elements of maritime museums and science museums. Some are popular tourist attractions, other nearly unknown. There's no way to measure them all on a single scale... If I had to recommend a subset, the top three would be Cobia, Blueback, and Nautilus with U-505, Cod, and Pampanito just behind. But there are none that I would omit if I did it all again. :)

Frank Reed
ReedNavigation.com

2

Museum Submarine Discussion / Re: Uncle Sam is an idiot when it comes to light bulbs!

« on: January 05, 2014, 04:33:29 PM »

Paul,

I agree completely that this is a "nanny government" nuisance. And our Republicans/conservatives are demonstrating amazing ineptness, unable to stop even this. But in the meantime, there are better non-incandescent options becoming available. The market works even when manipulated like this. The "squiggly" bulbs will be ancient history before they have all burned out.

These "Cree" LED bulbs are great. I would buy these even with ordinary incandescent bulbs available. I don't know how they perform in a hot environment.  Home Depot and other places sell them.

Frank Reed
Centennia Software / ReedNavigation.com
Conanicut Island  USA

3

New Member Introductions / Re: Thirteen subs in eight weeks

« on: January 22, 2010, 04:44:39 PM »

Mark,

You wrote:
"I have pictures on the websites' virtural tour"

It's a nice virtual tour, too. And quite a few submarine museums have such virtual tours. There's a really fine one for the USS Pampanito. Here's their tour of the conning tower:

http://www.maritime.org/tour/ct.php?pano=fl

But people don't drive hundreds of miles to see virtual tours. :-) And a virtual tour frequently includes views that are completely irrelevant to an actual vistor. If you visit Pampanito, you will find that the conning tower is blocked by a grating. The wonderful views found in their virtual tour are indeed "virtual". I managed to get the lense of my camera through it and grab a few awkward photos, but it's certainly not accessible. By contrast that dome-shaped grating on Batfish lets a visitor stand on the ladder head-and-shoulders inside the conning tower for a much better view. It's rather unique. As I say, as far as I remember, only Razorback has better access (it's wide open though they ask that you climb only halfway up the ladder --waist height).

So there's a simple thing that you may want to emphasize to draw more visitors to your submarine. Why wouldn't you?! They can get a good look around one of the most important compartments in the submarine; a compartment which is completely inaccessible in the great majority of submarines on display. THIS MAKES BATFISH MORE IMPORTANT.

As for audio tours and the money promised by "car salesmen" and such, the nice thing about an audio tour is that you can start simple and upgrade gradually. Ideally, you want a famous voice-actor (how about Martin Sheen? He's not busy last time I checked) and a discreetly hidden sound system with optional tracks, and motion-sensor activation, etc., etc., and it will cost thousands of dollars. One can dream, right? But you could install a simple system for a few hundred and probably convince a local college to help with the voice-acting and sound studio requirements. USS Cod has a nice audio system, good in design concept, audio, and technical execution. Maybe they could help... ?

-FER

4

New Member Introductions / Re: Thirteen subs in eight weeks

« on: January 21, 2010, 08:24:16 PM »

Rick of USS Batfish,

Since you're reading here, I just have to say, you folks really should shout it out on your web site and in your other materials that you have a great view into the conning tower of your submarine. That cage structure is a great idea. It's really quite unique. Only Razorback has better access of the 21 subs that I have visited, unless I missed one. On most subs, the conning tower is completely inaccessible or at best one can peek into it through a forbidding metal grating. To make this worthwhile, any text intended for the general public would need to explain the significance of the conning tower and its great importance to the operations of the submarine (I tell people, at least those who might get the pop culture reference, that they should "think of the bridge of the starship Enterprise with all its bridge crew, controls, and instruments, crammed into a walk-in closet").

Also, Batfish looks so exotic there in that grassy crater. It looks almost like it has been dropped there by space aliens. It's a very unusual siting with no obvious connection to the river, let alone the sea, and you folks should play that up. I understand how it got there, of course, but the decades that have elapsed seem to have erased any evidence of the channel that brought Batfish to that location.

Finally, just to reiterate, I really enjoyed my visit down there. Nice sub, nice little museum.

-FER

5

Museum Submarine Discussion / Re: Is your memorial sub being robbed on the web?

« on: January 21, 2010, 08:00:48 PM »

"USS Batfish" you wrote:
"I am afraid to open this can of worms, but what the hell it will not be the first time and doubt it will be the last...
Our only real solution is to copyright the boats names and logos.   I do not event know what the legalities would be as they are existing logos and potentially belong to the navy if anyone.  Some of you may already have your logos and names copyrighted.   "

No, there's no can of worms here. This is a straight-forward question with KNOWN answers. It can't be done. You cannot copyright or trademark or otherwise protect the name or logo of the vessels if they acquired those names and logos during US military service. They are in the public domain.

You can, however, legally restrict the use of photographs taken on your museum grounds. This is probably a good idea. Consult with an established maritime museum and find out what they do (see PS). Post some signage saying "photographs are for private use. no publication without permission and payment of royalties." or something along those lines. You can also prohibit photography, but that's almost certainly a bad idea. You can ALSO trademark the name of your institution and its logo, but the expense may not justify it. Copyright is generally the best solution. While copyright is automatic under current US law, it never does any harm to stick an explicit copyright notice on any and all publications, e.g. "(c) copyright 2010, Your Submarine Museum, Your Town, USA". Explicit copyright notices are very hard to ignore.

After I visited Muskogee recently and saw USS Batfish, I drove through Tahlequah and was reminded of some of the legal battles the Cherokee Nation (the official entity) fights on a regular basis. They, too, have to deal with the fact that even the name of their ethnic group is in the public domain hence a car called a "Cherokee" is quite legal even though they don't get one thin dime for the use of the name. That's the law of the land. They can, however, suppress and challenge anyone who uses the full name "Cherokee Nation" or who claims to represent such commercially. And they do go after online merchants claiming affiliation when they are not connected in any way.

-FER
PS: Some submarine museums tend to operate in a fringe world since all of the submarines that have been preserved are not even 75 years old. But make no mistake, there are maritime museums that have been through all of this before and in great detail, and they've been doing it for decades. You don't have to reinvent the wheel down there in Muskogee. Call up Mystic Seaport in Connecticut, for example, or the Mariners Museum in Virginia (they know submariners if not submarines) and explain who you are and ask if you can email someone regarding intellectual property rights issues and maritime museums. The folks at "Mystic Seaport" long ago failed to trademark the name of their museum, and the results were nearly disastrous. And of course, there's the Wisconsin Maritime Museum which, from my experience, is the most fully integrated museum+submarine operation in the US. They formerly prohibited photography aboard their sub, but now they allow it. Undoubtedly they've thought through the intellectual property rights issues, one way or another.

6

Museum Submarine Discussion / Re: Is your memorial sub being robbed on the web?

« on: January 21, 2010, 07:33:52 PM »

Darrin, you wrote:
"this is not a high school debate about whom is right or wrong in the world"

No, it is not.

But there are real issues here with real answers. It is also not just some "can of worms". The question of intellectual property rights is a major one at museums worldwide. Submarine museum managements tend to be amateurs on this score. Are photos of submarines and logos from submarines operated by museums and other institutions copyrighted material? Well that all depends. Are the images in the public domain? Generally if they were produced under US government contract or by individuals working for the US government at the time then they are in the public domain worldwide. That's US law. Note that this is not the law in other countries. For example, government documents and imagery are not public domain in the UK, and if you attempt to publish images or data from UK government sources (e.g. the Nautical Almanac), then you can be, and probably will be, sued by the intellectual property rights powers-that-be from the UK. What about images taken by private photographers visiting one of your subs? This depends on posted signage. If you post something that says photographs are for personal use and "may not be published without the express written consent of major league baseball" (or similar) then you can always go after someone who abuses images, and you will probably win legal damages.

The case of the logo commissioned by Paul in 1997 (according to him) should be a clear-cut case where the institution and the original artist do have copyright in the image. It is not legal for that online merchant to use it. It is also likely in this case that this merchant does not realize that this "skull with a torpedo through it" (very classy!) is a modern creation not connected with the original service of USS Cod. And as I noted previously, the solution is simple. Issue a cease-and-desist letter explaining the origin of the image and its copyright status.

And you continued:
"IMHO Paul is right about being upset because he believes that the COD is having money taken from then and he is RIGHT!!"

In the specific case of that commissioned logo created in 1997, yes. But otherwise it is quite absurd to suggest that people selling items connected with the legacy of museum submarines are "stealing" from the institutions operating and maintaining those museum submarines. These items (photos, logos, etc.) are in the public domain, and it is 100% legal for anyone to attempt to make a profit off of them.  This is called capitalism, entrepreunership, and enterprise. Remember when those things were highly valued in America?

And by the way, you're worrying about chump change. There's a high likelihood that these are minor home businesses with negligible profit. As I noted previously, museum operations might do better to work with these folks. Get them to link to your web site for more information about the subs. Get them to state the specific terms under which the items are offered, clearly indicating that they do not represent your museum. Turn them into resellers for products that you've already produced. The great majority of submarine memorials and museums with submarines have a very low public profile, damn near invisible in fact, and most people are quite unaware that these submarines even exist in museums until they stumble upon them by accident. As for USS Torsk, I have met three people in the past six months who've been to Baltimore more than once who had no idea that there was a museum sub there. You folks need publicity any way you can get it.

And you wrote:
"on Epray right now have a model of the USS TORSK (SS-423) that is being SOLD from the P.I.   you all know that little island in the South Pacific"

So what? Why in the world would this bother you?? Did you ever build model ships when you were a kid (or now even)? Did you ever have a model of a non-US ship? Was that a crime?? Of course not. There's absolutely nothing wrong with some merchant from the PI selling a model of Torsk. You should welcome the publicity. And perhaps someone in official standing in the Torsk organization could draft an email to him inviting him to link to the official web site of your organization in future listings, if any.

And you wrote:
"As far as I know there is NO money coming into TVA for that or for the 8x10 glossy pictures that are currently for sale"

Yep. It's called capitalism. You do not own Torsk. You do not own the history of Torsk. You do not own the public domain images of Torsk. If someone else can manage to run a tiny business selling such images, more power to them. You make the mistake of thinking of this economy as a "zero-sum game". In other words, if someone else is making money, then surely you are losing money. This is not at all true.

And you wrote:
"nor is any boat going to see the Bausch and Laumb TBT stand Bino's that are up for bid right now for 2K+  and it would have been nice for one of our boats to get this but I don't think that it will happen..."

Museums have confronted this issue since museums first existed: how do we acquire artifacts in private collections without paying exorbitant prices for them? One solution is to emply anonymous middlemen. That can work. National museums in some countries sometimes can declare such objects as public property and simply confiscate them by legal fiat. There are even cases of this under special circumstances in the US. If you think it's the way to go, you should write your congressmen and suggest that they pass a law making it illegal to buy or sell USN and other US military artifacts more that 25 years old, let's say, except when the buyer and sellers are certified museums. Then such items will become available to museums in large numbers and at good prices. Until then, it IS legal to buy and sell and own USN artifacts from the Second World War (and earlier). No doubt you own a few such items yourself.

And you grumbled:
"But for the folks like FER it is a moot point because they only really care about complaining about how little our boats are maintained and how they are interprited "

If you really care about preserving the legacy of historic submarines and the submariners who worked aboard them, you would not be satisfied with mediocrity. If the public at large is unimpressed with your work, funding will dry up and subs will be scrapped. Institutionalized failure, mediocrity lauded as success. Those things are your enemies -- not the people who actually visit museum submarines... and notice their strengths and weaknesses.

And you concluded:
"Again it is a moot point to be complaining about this, the crews that maintain our submarines are not recieving some if not all of the money from these sales and it stinks out loud because they need the money to preserve these boats."

I do understand some small degree of annoyance here, but you need to keep this all in perspective. Selling crap is NOT going to make the difference between preserving a sub and losing one. About half of the sub museums I've visited seem to have a "gift shop" selling mugs and t-shirts and keychains and other "crap" and I sometimes buy some of this crap if I'm in the mood. But this is minor money. You're not going to sink or swim on the basis of such trivial sales.

Again, those small-time online merchants selling photos are NOT criminals. They're not taking money from you. It's not a zero-sum game.

-FER

7

New Member Introductions / Twenty-one subs in six months

« on: January 18, 2010, 04:17:29 PM »

Well, I'm now up to 21. While the middle of the country was suffering with cold, I drove to the south and west where it was 75 degrees and sunny most of the time, and I hit some subs along the way. The only subs in the continental US (open to the public and enterable) that I have not yet visited are USS Blueback and USS Drum. I also have not yet seen Bowfin, Marlin, and Onondaga.

Quick thoughts from my recent trip:
* USS Razorback --it's a time capsule. Great tour. Go and see. The conning tower is open to visitors (for halfway visits), see Batfish below. And they do a nice job explaining its Turkish service, too.
* USS Cavalla --deteriorating and with little interpretation. Skip it. Pretty spot for watching shipping traffic though.
* Foxtrot in San Diego --not bad but it could use better interpretation. The SD Maritime Museum is worth the visit no matter what, btw.
* USS Dolphin --small but unique. Worth seeing as probably the most modern US sub on display. Minimal interpretation.
* Foxtrot in Long Beach --very nice. Lots of small details displayed and good, albeit corny, interpretation via recordings in each compartment.
* USS Pampanito --excellent condition. Floating and in fact bobbing about and groaning in the swells that make it into SF bay. the interior is a bit "protected" by plexiglass, maybe not surprising considering the city location, and the interpretation is minimal unless you pay $2 for the audio tour.
* USS Batfish --nice. An out-of-the-way location. The museum is so basic that it feels "family-owned" but they do a good job. The sub is well-preserved and the interpretation is fair. They could benefit from an audio system. Like Razorback, the conning tower is partially accessible.

-FER

8

Museum Submarine Discussion / Re: Is your memorial sub being robbed on the web?

« on: January 18, 2010, 03:57:46 PM »

You wrote:
"But in this case, the logo this putz is using is exactly the skull and torpedo design I had a Cleveland artist render back in 1997!"

In that case, you have a straight-forward copyright situation. Copyright is automatic under US law today. It belongs to the author of the work, or if paid for the work, it belongs to the backer. So you hold copyright in that logo, and you should send a cease-and-desist letter. This does not require a lawyer or any expense. Just write a letter saying that you hold copyright in that logo and that they must stop using it immediately or you will have to seek legal remedies (and you can include language saying that this would involve "substantial fines for the offender"). If they continue, you find a lawyer willing to chase them down for the sake of the fee he or she will earn (you would get nothing but satisfaction). It's quite possible that this store owner mistakenly assumes that this logo is out-of-copyright, that it is original period artwork, and if told that it is a recent creation they might be happy to pull it.

And you wrote:
"If he had used some other form of a skull and torpedo, say from the COD's WWII battleflag, I would be mad, but I don't think there is much I might do, besides bitching that he is stealing money from us."

He is NOT stealing from you, unless he specifically claims to represent your organization, and it doesn't appear to me that he does. Just saying that he represents "USS Cod's legacy" or some similar language is not illegal, and he is not stealing from you since you did not create USS Cod nor do you own it or any associated logos. Logos from its service legacy are not protected by copyright, and why shouldn't some entrepreneur offer items for sale that use the logos?? Are you opposed to capitalism?

Of course, I certainly understand that you feel annoyed by the "dilution" of your institutional message, but it isn't stealing. You should consider piggybacking your own fund-raising efforts on his advertising. You could offer similar items for sale, perhaps at slightly lower prices, and SPECIFICALLY stating that yours is the real organization. You may also want to consider inviting that entrepreneur to include language inviting people to visit the actual sub and support your restoration efforts financially. Co-opt him rather than fighting him...

And you wrote:
"Please pass the word to your friends who may want to buy COD merchandise that this is a criminal operation"

Nonsense. It is not a "criminal operation" EXCEPT to the extent that they are using a logo which you created independently and this merchant may not be aware at all that it is an independent bit of artwork. It's your job to inform him by including a copyright notice for that artwork wherever it appears, or by writing to him and asking him to remove it.

And you wrote:
"Maybe next these jackasses will be stealing the bronze grave markers from veteran cemeteries for scrap value! "

Borrowing that rather tasteless "metalhead" logo from your web site is a minor matter. Comparing this with grave-robbing is wild hyperbole and really hurts your cause.

And you wrote:
"But this is a clear cut case of STEALING the work of OUR artist.  Mo Fo gonna die slowly and painfully if I get his ass in my sights!"

And one more thing... Although you guys are just kidding around, when you suggest that are going to injure someone, you expose YOURSELF and also the owner of this web site to criminal action. The guy with the web site that annoys you so much could end up suing you... and winning. Really. No shit. It's a line you do not want to cross.

-FER

9

Museum Submarine Discussion / Re: US subs preserved overseas

« on: October 29, 2009, 06:47:51 PM »

JTheotonio, you wrote:
"Thanks FER - but you didn't dig far enough.  There is a lot more on these three old boats"

Thanks. I had not seen the kocaeli site's 360 panorama. Very nice! The rest, of course, you find rather quickly once you start digging (and I had seen them, yes). Have any of you (you who are reading this) visited the former Tang or the former Gudgeon since they went on display as museum vessels? Considering that people are talking about more than ten million dollars to restore Clamagore, I wonder whether the Turkish Navy and the museums managing them would consider returning Tang or Gudgeon to the USA for some substantial amount of money (something much less than what it would cost to restore Clamagore, e.g. one million dollars).

Back to my original question, does anyone know of any US submarines which have been preserved outside of the USA, besides these three?

-FER

10

Museum Submarine Discussion / US subs preserved overseas

« on: October 28, 2009, 11:54:15 PM »

Besides the following, does anyone know of any former US submarines preserved outside the USA?

In Turkey:
FORMER USS Thornback (Tench - Guppy IIA)
Renamed TCG Uluc Ali Reis
Museum sub at Rahmi Koc Museum, Istanbul, Turkey
Lat 41 02 29 N
Lon 28 56 52 E

FORMER USS Gudgeon (Tang-class)
Renamed TCG Hizir Reis
Museum sub alongside TCG Gayret (former USS Eversole, Gearing-class destroyer), Izmit, Turkey
Lat 40 45 36 N
Lon 29 55 00 E

FORMER USS Tang (Tang-class)
Renamed TCG Piri Reis
Museum sub at Inciralti Museum, alongside TCG Ege (former USS Ainsworth, Knox-class frigate), Izmir, Turkey
Lat 38 24 45 N
Lon 27 02 05 E

If you visit the coordinates above in Google Earth, you can see these boats clearly (took me quite a while to find them!!). And if you click around on the "photo squares" nearby, you can find many photos of the subs. I've attached three reduced copies below. They all appear to be in good condition. Not too surprising since they were only recently de-commissioned.

-FER

11

USS Cobia (SS-245) / Cobia and the Wisconsin Maritime Museum

« on: October 26, 2009, 10:30:30 PM »

As I said when I introduced myself, I worked for some years at a major maritime museum, so I'm interested both in submarines as the fascinating vessels they are and also in their presentation and interpretation in museums.

I visited the Wisconsin Maritime Museum in Manitowoc, WI in late August this year. It was cold and foggy with light rain (what an odd summer it was in the upper Midwest). My original plan was to pay a quick visit to the USS Cobia, run through the museum quickly, and then go have a nice hot lunch somewhere. Instead, the museum was rather busy and there were no openings for tours for an hour and a half, so I "decided" I would spend more time exploring the museum. And what a fine museum it is! It tells the story of Manitowoc's submarine building days before and during the Second World War, but it's much more than that. It is a comprehensive display of the history of boating and shipping on the Great Lakes. It features an impressive steam engine, around 15 feet tall from the vessel "Chief Wawatam" (built in 1911, the steam engine was added to the museum in a significant expansion which opened in 2003). The engine is rigged to operate hydraulically in various modes at the push of a button. In the next room, there's a replica of the twelve-foot propeller which turns slowly as the engine runs. Other displays cover 19th century (and earlier) ship-building with beautiful models and artifacts tastefully displayed. There are numerous small boats on display inside the building. There are plenty of activities for kids including a fishing simulator, which I really wanted to try. Displays cover maritime history from every angle: commercial, military, recreational, scientific, and so on. There's a small display on celestial navigation (which was never terribly important on the lakes, so I can forgive the glaring error in its descriptive text --the only error I saw in the museum). The museum's exhibits are well-designed and well-executed. It's one of the best maritime museums I've ever seen. The scale is just about right. A family could spend a pleasant two or three hours here seeing almost everything at a normal pace. Oh, did I mention they have a submarine??

The USS Cobia was apparently the original center of the Wisconsin Maritime Museum, it's raison d'etre. Much to the credit of its planners, the fine museum has grown up around it. The Cobia itself is beautifully restored and the tour was informative and enjoyable, occasionally funny without being corny. My only complaint was that the tour was perhaps a touch too long but I think that's because the interpreter that day was new on the job --and maybe tired after a long full day of tours. The sub looks just great inside and out, and of the thirteen museum subs I've visited in the past few months, only the marvelous USS Cod in Cleveland beats it for presentation. Cobia, however, beats Cod since there is no museum to support the Cleveland sub.

The Wisconsin Maritime Museum and the USS Cobia are a "must-see" for anyone interested in submarines and maritime history generally. It's a long way to go for most people, but anyone in Chicago should consider adding it to a trip to Door County or other points "up north". It could also easily be combined with a trip to Oshkosh if you're heading out for the annual EAA aviation spectacular. The museum is well-advertised by highway signs and easy to reach just a few minutes off Interstate 43.

Highly recommended. Grade A. Five stars. I will certainly go back.

-FER

12

USS Clamagore (SS-343) / Re: Clamagore: PUFFed up GUPPY

« on: October 21, 2009, 11:27:35 PM »

Clamagore is the only GUPPY III known to exist. There were only nine of these conversions. Here's a summary culled from wikipedia, navsource, etc:

9 boats converted 1961-1963

Clamagore, museum ship in Charleston: 1981
Cobbler, to Turkey as Canakkale: 1973, decomm: 1998, another sub now has this name. fate?
Corporal, to Turkey as 2 Inonu: 1972, decomm: 1996, scrapped at a later date.
Greenfish, to Brazil as Amazonas: 1973, decomm: 1992, scrapped: 2001.
Tiru, sale to Turkey cancelled: c.1975, sunk as target: 1979.
Trumpetfish, to Brazil as Goias: 1973, decomm: 1990. fate?
Remora, to Greece as Katsonis: 1973, decomm: 1993, scrapped at a later date near Izmir, Turkey.
Pickerel, to Italy as Primo Longobardo: 1972/77, decomm: 1980, sold: 1981, another sub now has this name. fate?
Volador, to Italy as Gianfranco Gazzana Priaroggia: 1972/77, decomm: 1980, sold: 1981, another sub now has this name. fate?

As you can see, the fate of four of the others is apparently unknown.  Given that almost thirty years have passed since Pickerel and Volador were decommissioned, and given that there is no sign of them anywhere, I think we can assume that they were scrapped. Trumpetfish might still be down in South America somewhere. The best chance for another survivor is Cobbler since it was decommissioned only eleven years ago (it was in the Turkish Navy so the folks in Little Rock might know something... having acquired Razorback or "Muratreis" from them just a few years ago). There's also a chance that one of the boats listed as scrapped is rusting away somewhere.

-FER

13

USS Torsk (SS-423) / Re: Torsk letters

« on: October 17, 2009, 07:53:01 PM »

Gil Bohannon, you wrote:
"The "thing" you posted a photo of is a smoke detector. We have them in each compartment, and they are marked accordingly. So the one you saw with your initials is the one for the Forward Engine Room. "

Sure. Thanks! It's obviously a smoke detector (or a CO detector) and I only brought it up because I thought it was funny seeing my initials staring at me from that bulkhead.

And you wrote:
"Thank you for your input on the display case. When I put the sextant and navigational items in the case, I didn't do much as far as arranging them because they were intended as a temporary display until we have decided on a more formal display schedule. The sextant is no longer on display, nor is the star finder."

I see. That explains it then.

And you wrote:
"I understand what you are saying about selling the sextant, but we do not sell items that have been donated or have historical value."

Yes, that's a delicate issue with donations. All museums at a certain stage have to deal with this problem. Does this particular sextant have true historical value? Do you have any documentation on its history? Was it used aboard the Torsk at some point? Though it's not an American-made sextant or USN issue, it was quite common for officers to buy their own instruments. I couldn't see the serial number in my photos.

And:
"The star finder, although beat up, is one that has been used by submarine crews and therefore has historical significance. A new one might look pretty, but might not necessarily have the "feel" of a used one."

I don't agree on this one. That sleeve does not show normal wear and tear from use. It appears to have suffered from sort of storage deterioration (mold? plastic decay?). I have seen many examples of star finders from decades ago that are in much better condition. More importantly, mere use aboard some submarine does not qualify this item as a historical artifact. You're not collecting "relics of the cross" here. From the standpoint of education and interpretation, a copy of the star finder that doesn't look so beat up, or one that might even be displayed in such a way that it could be handled, would be more effective. I'm not suggesting a "new" one, though the newer ones are a little cheaper. I'm just saying that there are lots of these available on the market, and if you ever decide to display navigational items again --and the star finder is a great choice--, you can get a better one.

And you concluded:
"If you happen to come back through Torsk in the future, please give us a heads up. We could spend some time together and I am sure you would enjoy the visit much more if our volunteers are there to give you a behind-the-scenes look at what we do. That offer goes out to anyone who is interested - just let us know."

Thank you for the offer. Have you ever approached the powers that be to discuss the possibility of "VIP" or "behind-the-scenes" tours as a commercial option? Most museum submarines charge something like five to ten dollars for admission (though this is not always clear since many are part of a combined admission to a museum or a collection of vessels). Usually this admission covers a very basic guided tour or a self-guided tour. But there are many people who would pay $25 or possibly more for something more meaningful --a tour with some meat on the bones :-). In addition to providing more public service and a means of validating your importance to the community, these can also be a good way of impressing potential donors. There's a lot of money walking through the Inner Harbor ever lunch hour!

-FER

14

USS Torsk (SS-423) / Re: Torsk letters

« on: October 17, 2009, 07:16:26 PM »

Darrin, you wrote:
"FER or whatever your real name is, buck up and ASK the crews of the boats that you are visiting when THEY will be onboard so that you can get a REAL tour of the boat and not have to leave leave your mark as you did in After Battery onboard Torsk..."

Ho boy... The things people post late on a Friday night! I am sure you regret posting this, Darrin, so I will accept your apology in advance.

More generally, I understand your pride in your volunteer work on Torsk, and I am aware that your group has done plenty of good work on it. You should be proud of that. But that does not mean that the project is successful as yet. As it stands, Torsk is in the middle ground as museum subs go (of the ones I have seen).

-FER

15

USS Torsk (SS-423) / Re: Torsk letters

« on: October 17, 2009, 06:40:52 PM »

Lance, you wrote:
"Maybe the F.E.R. was for "Forward Engine Room"?"

Thanks! Makes good sense, and Gil Bohannon has now confirmed it. Like I say, I had to laugh when I saw it. It was like the submarine was talking to me. :-)

-FER