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General Boards => Submarine Related Chatter => School of the Boat => Topic started by: Darrin on January 07, 2009, 11:27:08 AM

Title: School of the boat for 7 Jan 09 (Hydraulics)
Post by: Darrin on January 07, 2009, 11:27:08 AM
Let's keep the ball rolling with the school of the boat folks,
This weeks block of instruction is going to be on the Hydraulic system and how they work and what did they operate on a Balao..

So the first part of this one is simple, describe the hydraulic system and what it does.
Title: Re: School of the boat for 7 Jan 09 (Hydraulics)
Post by: Mark Sarsfield on January 07, 2009, 05:41:13 PM
I'll let someone else go this time, although I'll probably be the one answering it.

I'd like to ask the sub vets to refrain from answering these, if possible.  Drag people out of their other forums, if need be.  Some folks only read posts under their specific boat.  We need more particiaption from the n00bs (like me).
Title: Re: School of the boat for 7 Jan 09 (Hydraulics)
Post by: Darrin on January 13, 2009, 11:53:50 PM
ECHO...... ECHO...... HELLLO...... HELLLO...... ANYONE HERE?????  IS ANYONE STILL INTERESTED IN DOING THE SCHOOL OF THE BOAT????? ECHO.....ECHO...EACHO......

Guess I can break out the nudie pics now and smile and teach this to those whom care ;)
Title: Re: School of the boat for 7 Jan 09 (Hydraulics)
Post by: Lance Dean on January 14, 2009, 12:09:07 AM
I am interested still.  I'm just busy and lazy at the same time...
Title: Re: School of the boat for 7 Jan 09 (Hydraulics)
Post by: Darrin on January 14, 2009, 12:45:38 AM
Folks,
while most may never consider getting their hydraulics restored because they can use chain falls or a crane to get the actual equipment to where they would like it the Pamp and the COD have their systems WORKING which means that ALL of is could get it running one more time IF we have the patience and know how to do so.

Me personally I like to have all of the equipment that I work on operational instead of having to come up with a secondary method to get things to work.. with that being said IF your hydraulics haven't been opened in a LOT of years and you are going to be operating them there is a number of things that you have to consider prior to getting them to work once more.

Have I tossed this idea around on Torsk a number of times???? yup damned near every time that I am up there, what that means for Torsk is rebuilding or at least tearing down most of the hydraulic system and putting it back together and then flushing it out and then getting either the IMO's running or a varient working to make certain systems work once more. Each part of the system can be ISOLATED i.e. scopes and tubes and planes so it isn't a full blown operation for those whom would like to do this it just takes a bit of work and some time to get it running once more.

SO with that being said what do the IMO pumps due and where do they get their power from???
Title: Re: School of the boat for 7 Jan 09 (Hydraulics)
Post by: Lance Dean on January 15, 2009, 10:26:02 AM
Here's the section of the manual on hydraulics:

http://www.hnsa.org/doc/fleetsub/hydr/index.htm

Looks like the IMO pump pressurizes the hydraulic system?
Title: Re: School of the boat for 7 Jan 09 (Hydraulics)
Post by: emeacho on January 16, 2009, 01:40:35 PM
Both IMO pups are powered from the Forward Aux DC switchboard, which is located in the Control Room aft stbd corner, via an auxiliary distribution panel FB-209 (at least on Torsk anyway).
Title: Re: School of the boat for 7 Jan 09 (Hydraulics)
Post by: Darrin on January 16, 2009, 04:15:21 PM
Well Lance it looks like you are the only one to come out of hiding to answer the question that was asked but not answered, your link I am sure runs us back to the hydraulic section of the fleet manual but that does not really tell us what it does.... It may break it down and give you a number of reasons why to have have the hydraulic systems working but it doesn't tell you anything about why...

For the COD and I am sure there are others out there, when you go into MANUAL mode on the Bow Planes it is through a VERY long shaft to operate them and during normal op's it is run with little problems.

To bring your 'scopes up without hydraulics on almost all of the boats requires a CRANE and all of the extra gear in the sail (or at least for the Torsk) the Snorkle Mast and the "Football" (ECM Mast) and various other things that have not worked since '68-'71 when she was decommed and then a Reserve boat until she went to Bawlmore, is a nightmare to make operational again.

There are many different loops on the hydraulic system that can be isolated and operated independantly (i.e. Torpedo Room) BTW what hydraulics are used in the 'Room's????

SO what are they and why do we NEED them... And sadly we have NOT discussed the removal and rebuilding procedures of the valves associated that may or may not be leaking in YOUR boat so that you won't have to have the drip pans or clean up the messes that are left by residual hydraulics from a past generation.
Title: Re: School of the boat for 7 Jan 09 (Hydraulics)
Post by: Lance Dean on January 16, 2009, 06:45:21 PM
Oh I was just posting a helpful link to help others find an answer.  I couldn't come up with a good one.

I recall hearing how hard it is to operate the bow planes manually, especially after all these years.  On the Drum, they managed to move the periscope around with some kind of hydraulic ram.  That was for the movie filming, and the periscope now points at the battleship.
Title: Re: School of the boat for 7 Jan 09 (Hydraulics)
Post by: Darrin on January 16, 2009, 10:18:29 PM
Lance,
you weren't wrong as to what you posted, and I applaud you for posting what you did. What VERY few boats have done is RESTORE their hydraulic systems and that started with the IMO pumps and that is what I am getting at...

Paul Farace was able to get all his hydraulic systems working first followed by Rich Pekelney on the Pampanito... While Pamp may have had their scopes move up and down first Paul was the one that brought his system up and made ready to run once more.. With that being said Paul had an advantage on most of the museum boats as his boat is still in it's ORIGIONAL config and he still maintains all of his origional hatches and IF he had to he could submerge his boat without too much damage.

SO why am I being such a pain about this school of the boat???  it is because with some work and a bit of skill EVERYONE can have their systems working once more, this isn't a F/M 38 1/8 that we are trying to rebuild nor is it a GM engine that hasn't turned in a number of years..

Had this been a real school of the boat those whom lurk here or those whom post but do not answer would be walking through the boat hand over handing every system on this boat and the COB would not be letting ANY slackers off for work or what not's...

The only thing that can be actually found here in these school of the boats is a greater respect for the boats that we work on and the knowledge that we CAN rebuild them once more to their former glory.

Title: Re: School of the boat for 7 Jan 09 (Hydraulics)
Post by: etkfixr on January 21, 2009, 08:34:52 PM
Since we've been idle a while I'll chip in, plus we had snow in North Carolina so they rolled up the roads and I can't do anything else anyway.  The IMO pumps, there are two, are screw-type pumps driven by 18 HP motors.  They have three screws, one driven by the motor and two idlers.  They take oil initially pressurized by the supply tank at 25 psi and boost it to 600 to 700 psi.  This oil fills an accumulator that is pressurized by air from the High Pressure air system.  The air side is pressurized to 1750 psi, the accumulator runs at a 3:1 ratio, so the oil side runs between 600 and 700 psi.
The hydraulic system powers loads such as:  Torpedo tube muzzle doors, Ballast tank vent valves (8), air induction valve, engine exhaust valves (2), the capstan/ anchor windlass, Safety and negative tank floods, Safety tank vent, Sonar sound heads, Periscopes and antennas, the bow plane rigging motor and for steering and diving planes control.  Whew.
There are several loops.  Service forward does the forward muzzle doors, capstan/windlass and the sonar sound heads.  Service aft does the after tube doors and the engine exhausts.  There are two manifolds at the COW station for the induction valve, safety and negative tanks, and the ballast tank vents.  The control handles have different shapes to help the COW tell by feel in the dark.  Also, one of them is at rest in a different position than the others.  Anybody want to take a stab at that?
Oh yeah, some of the steering controls don't run on shafts.  If you lose normal power you can shift to an emergency configuration that turns the control wheel (called a telemotor)l into a hydraulic pump.  I understand that is what the fold out handcranks are for, so you can spin it like the devil when in emergency.

PS  You guys are so incredibly lucky to have toys that are just the right size.  The battleship I work on is so big that I can't hope to get much of anything running both for lack of time and lack of resources.  Heck, the gun turret hydraulic motors take 440 VAC, three phase at 600 amps each.  Our whole shore power feed right now is 600 amps, I can't even hope to run one.
Title: Re: School of the boat for 7 Jan 09 (Hydraulics)
Post by: Darrin on January 22, 2009, 12:00:50 AM
Lance and ET you two have hit the ball out of the park...   I made the reference to the manual bow planes because of the COD, she still HAS HER's 8) she was never modified to have a hydraulic backup and to see the VERY long shaft running from Control to the Fwd Room was humbling and at times painfull knowing that the procedure for running those had to be practiced and quite often so the Planesmen probably were very strong at the end of their training schedule and I can only hope that it was never used but seeing the depth charge damage to the COD a few months ago I am VERY sure that they had to use them in manual mode.

Remember folks, while we struggle to learn these systems that are now considered out dated and obsolete, the men of a different generation had to learn these systems while taking them to war (with the exception of the Marlin,Dolphin).. and those whom knew these systems are leaving us at a very quick rate these days and many don't remember exactly what everything did (lord knows that I couldn't do the qual board over again on the Honolulu today without a LOT of walk through's on a boat that doesn't exist anymore)

SO with that being said please ask for help in your local areas for subvet's to come and help out, if nothing more then to record their time on their boats to go into the Nat'l archives and you may find out that the nice quiet old guy down the street was qualified submarines also and may or may not be pissed off at the previous management that had your boat, or the guy that finally wants to open up about his life onboard a submarine what to him feels like a life time ago.
Title: Re: School of the boat for 7 Jan 09 (Hydraulics)
Post by: etkfixr on January 22, 2009, 11:08:50 PM
Thanks Darrin.  Anybody want to take a stab at the two questions I left?  There is a three valve manifold at the COW station.  What are the shapes of the handles?  One valve is out of sequence from the others.  The other handles point outboard in their normal at rest position but this one is different.....why?  Thank you America, and good night.  Terry
Title: Re: School of the boat for 7 Jan 09 (Hydraulics)
Post by: Lance Dean on January 22, 2009, 11:20:52 PM
Thanks Darrin.  Anybody want to take a stab at the two questions I left?  There is a three valve manifold at the COW station.  What are the shapes of the handles?  One valve is out of sequence from the others.  The other handles point outboard in their normal at rest position but this one is different.....why?  Thank you America, and good night.  Terry

Is this what you're talking about, bottom left-ish?

(http://www.snakeyez.us/photos/battleshippark2008/thumb/480DSC05779.JPG)

I wish I could recall the story about these handles.  Didn't some sub sink because someone pulled the wrong handle in the dark or something?
Title: Re: School of the boat for 7 Jan 09 (Hydraulics)
Post by: Mark Sarsfield on January 23, 2009, 12:34:59 PM
We had quite a disucssion on the hydraulic system under the Batfish posts some time ago.  We're slowly understandingt he enormity of getting anything on the boat looking good and running again... well some of us are. :)  Some day we'll get to this, but we need reliable wiring onboard, first.
Title: Re: School of the boat for 7 Jan 09 (Hydraulics)
Post by: Darrin on January 23, 2009, 05:00:05 PM
Mark,
One thing to remember is get the basics running and then work on bringing the other systems back up as time comes, in the 10 years that Torsk Volunteer Association has been onboard they started with very little working and very little equipment and even fewer bunks to a boat that has almost all of her equipment back onboard again along with having most of her bunks and power running CORRECTLY through the boat and as more systems come online (RADIO) she really feels like alive again. Everytime that I go up to work on her something else is working and something else has been restored and I have been apart of making that happen, no where near as much as I would like but with a 4 hour drive 1 way it is a pretty daunting task just to work for 6-8 hours and then drive home.

For those whom have read the Torsk bbs and gone through the Activities section of the website, it looks like we have bounced around alot to get things done.... Well we have but we never forgot to get the basics working and as things popped up (Strip ships and weapons) we stopped working on the basic's (electrical and HVAC) to get pieces and parts that now are no longer available and are probably have been melted down and used in the new cars in the last 10 years.

While our hydraulics may not work (yet) we are still working on bringing other systems to life that are more benifical to the boat then making the scopes and other gear go up and down, we have not stopped trying to get our boat back to where she works and looks good.

For those whom haven't been to the Torsk website here's the addy: www.usstorsk.org
Please go look at the Activities section and see how far we truly have come, granted some of the website picture haven't been updated for a while but we truly have been blessed by a FANTASTIC crew that has gone to their limits trying to bring gear home to the boat that needed it so much. :smitten:   And I am guilty of not taking pictures of the many strip ships that I have done with members of the crew and without any support, looking back I wish that I had taken pictures of what we had done in JRRF for future referance but it is too late now.
Title: Re: School of the boat for 7 Jan 09 (Hydraulics)
Post by: Mark Sarsfield on February 27, 2013, 02:35:31 PM
Time to resurrect this school topic.  For those boats that got their systems working, did you guys rip apart every last piece of hydraulic plumbing or just the packings, valves, pumps, and actuators?  My thought is to repair and replace the obvious.  Two daunting issues that we still face on the Batfish is getting a high-powered air supply working and also a high-voltage DC supply.  A few years ago I was looking into commercial DC rectifiers that could handle the voltage and loads needed for items like the IMO pumps, galley, etc.  Not cheap and quite an undertaking.  Getting sufficient power to our boat is still a much-discussed topic. We have two dedicated 100A lines running to the Batfish, but both are pretty much taxed as is.
Title: Re: School of the boat for 7 Jan 09 (Hydraulics)
Post by: Darrin on February 27, 2013, 04:22:49 PM
Mark,

IF I remember correctly the Pamp had isolated their ships hydraulic system and installed a small accumulator and hydraulic pump and then rebuilt the valves and packing for the periscopes so they could be raised and lowered. What that means for you is that you can buy a small commerical 110VAC pump and get a small accumulator and operate your systems cheaply.

Doing it cheaply :2funny: that is to ass/u/me that you have no residual 40+ year old contaminated fluid in the lines and you have all of the packings onboard for all of the connections/valves in your periscope system AND you can find someone to donate the pump&accumulator&fluid and the hoses to hook them up.

Now with the Torsk, I did work on part of the hydraulics in the ATR for the rudder controls and stern planes and found that a LOT of the packings were missing and there were blanking plates installed and incredibly some of the joints were only hand tight at the pumps.. The purpose for working on the hydraulics in the ATR a few years ago was to get them to stop leaking :2funny: and not to make them operational once more. Sadly we did have a 110VAC pump&accumulator donated to the Torsk and later delivered to a local volunteers house only to have it set outside in his yard for years while it was being decided if it was going to be used or not and the accumulator tank was to large to fit through the hatches and honestly I don't know what happened to that system and I seriously doubt that the volunteer has it anymore at his house.

To answer your question correctly Mark, remember that no matter what you have to have a supply and return line attached to an accumulator which serves 2 purposes and you also have to have a hydraulic pump.. Personally I would look into getting a small portable self contained hydraulic unit and then slowly drain out the old lines, replace all of the packings and seals and then slowly start pressurizing your hydraulic systems one at a time. Another thing to remember is whatever you are trying to operate has grease fittings that may or maynot have been used in years and in the case of the periscopes you may have blocks holding them in place so they don't lower with or without pressure.

Another thing to remember is once you start pressurizing your hydraulic systems they will need to be bled carefully while someone is watching the level in the accumulator (think about bleeding the brakes in a car) and then you will need to start putting drip pans under all of the valves in that system because they will start leaking again and that leads to other issues with having tourista's onboard and not a full time crew to constantly clean up the drips before they become to big.
Title: Re: School of the boat for 7 Jan 09 (Hydraulics)
Post by: Darrin on February 27, 2013, 04:25:11 PM
One question regarding air pressure, Why do you need a high pressure air system? Hydraulics don't use high pressure air at all. And most of the systems onboard can be used with 125PSI air that you can get from a commercial air compressor or two
Title: Re: School of the boat for 7 Jan 09 (Hydraulics)
Post by: Mark Sarsfield on February 27, 2013, 06:37:20 PM
Here's what Rich wrote to me in an email:

Quote
Mark,

This is a big topic, perhaps best on the phone to start.

Simple things include replacing filters, cleaning the tank, replacing missing bleeder valves stems, hydrostatic testing, checking electrical to pumps, motor starters, motors, relief valves.  We did all of this in the early 1990s, but when we made a movie in 1996 we installed a small hydraulic unit in the C.T. because we did not have high pressure air.  The accumulator requires 1800 PSI air to work correctly.  We kept 2000 PSI air working when we wanted to for about 10 years (mostly with a shore side compressor) and used the hydraulic system a few times a year.  However, safely operating high pressure air is resource intensive.  The 1/2 air bank we used needs to be hydrostatically tested, relief valves tested, etc.  So we fell out of discipline a few years ago.  We occasionally operate the hydraulic system without the accumulator, but this is really hard on the bypass valves and IMO. 

For the past few months, we have been working on designing and installing a new Bosch/Rexeral auxiliary hydraulic pump in the pump room.  We have created replica shells for the hydraulic filters that have a fitting to attached to the output side of the pump, the intake will be from a replica cover to the hydraulic tank in control.  Power will be a portable cable draped through the boat during use to the after battery where we have three phase modern power.   No damage was done to the historic fabric, the changes can be removed and the original pieces re-installed with a wrench.  The idea is that we can use the original IMO, accumulator, etc. if we want to, but for work in drydock or an event where we do not have the resources to create high pressure air we can use the auxiliary pump.  We are hoping to have this working by the end of the year.

rich

Title: Re: School of the boat for 7 Jan 09 (Hydraulics)
Post by: Darrin on February 27, 2013, 08:40:25 PM
Very nice, Thanks Mark
Title: Re: School of the boat for 7 Jan 09 (Hydraulics)
Post by: Mark Sarsfield on February 28, 2013, 10:41:09 AM
It sounds like Pamp is on the right path.  Once they get everything set up and running satisfactorily, we'll put our own quote together.  Maybe we can get some City of Muskogee money to get it accomplished.  Batfish hydraulic systems have been exposed to air for 30 to 40 years, due to leaks and the slow draining of the fluid into the pump room bilge.  So, a modern system using repaired plumbing for the scopes is the best way to go, in my opinion.

Batfish still has a lot of drip pans installed in various locations, but I'm sure we'll find new drips.

We also have to check out the hydraulics for the air radar mast.  It's probably tied into the scope system and there might be a possibility that it can't be isolated.  I'm just wondering where the mast control is.  I know where the radar unit sits, but I have never noticed mast controls.
Title: Re: School of the boat for 7 Jan 09 (Hydraulics)
Post by: Darrin on February 28, 2013, 12:51:03 PM
Radio,

look at when the Torsk raised their "football" using a crescent hammer and some sweat
Title: Re: School of the boat for 7 Jan 09 (Hydraulics)
Post by: Mark Sarsfield on February 28, 2013, 06:17:47 PM
Thanks.  I'll look in there, again.
Title: Re: School of the boat for 7 Jan 09 (Hydraulics)
Post by: Mike on July 23, 2014, 11:46:55 AM
The only thing that can be actually found here in these school of the boats is a greater respect for the boats that we work on and the knowledge that we CAN rebuild them once more to their former glory.

A question of rigging the bow planes has brought me here (thanks, Darrin), and I agree with this comment.

There are no boats here in Columbus, GA... The nearest one is the Drum, and that is on the itinerary for this weekend before the Boy goes back to HI. However, all of this talk has me opening multiple tabs on the saturated browser and itching for something real to see.
Hats off to all who are keeping this knowledge alive – I aim to join the conversation in a more useful manner one day… Till then, I am doing my best sponge impersonation. :)?