SUBMARINEMUSEUMS.ORG Forum
General Boards => Submarine Related Chatter => School of the Boat => Topic started by: Darrin on October 08, 2008, 09:07:59 PM
-
Knowing that I have asked JT to do this block of instruction and he has done an absolutely fantastic job with it, I sadly am going to step on his toes with these two questions because I have dealt with both in real life and these need to be discussed because 1 may happen and it is not a pretty site and the other nearly cost us an Aircraft Carrier and many planes and submarines when it caught fire..
1.) Earlier I asked what a "screaming alpha" is and I would like to know the answer to this because sadly I have seen it and it haunts me to think about it and I don't wish it on anyone.... Remember one thing about the "A" class fire is that it leaves an ASH and it hurts like hell while the fire is going.
2.) How to put out a class "D" fire.... Folks look up magnesium and see how to put it out because submarines carry flares and other compontents that used them.. OR if you are bored look up the fire on the USS FORESTALL and see what THEY did to put it out.
To put this into perspective, there was a Medal Of Honor given to a crew member of a bomber who had a flare light off INSIDE of the crew compartment and the airman severly burned BOTH of his hands and arms putting the flare in the ejector and getting rid of it before it destroyed his plane.
-
Darrin,
I and I think both of us need others to step in here to answer these questions - I work now in the electrical utility business (OK I'm a regulator now) and this also can relate to some very serious electrical accidents (I'm trying not to get this away), your Screaming Fire is a terrible occurrence and one that every shipmate needs to remember how to deal with. When answered let me tell a tale about my business now. Magnesium is just nasty. They talk about it in DC classes, but rarely demonstrate these fires for a reason.
-
Understand you on that JT,
sorry if I stepped on your toes on it because this is your block of instruction and not mine
-
No problem - you are not stepping, more like a positive contribution to help everyone. :D
-
While you are looking to answer Darrin's question - here something to ponder about fires in a compartment
Hot Air Exposure - what happens to you :knuppel2:
200 degrees - Incapacitation 35 minutes, Death 60 minutes
300 degrees - Incapacitation 5 minutes, Death 30 minutes
380 degrees - Immediate incapacitation, Death 15 minutes
400 degrees - Irreversible respiratory tract damage
650 degrees - Death :angel:
During its life, a compartment fire normally experiences four different stages: growth, flashover, fully developed fire, and ???
What is the last stage of a fire? (I've given you the first three above) :-\
-
Very nice question and a tough one at that, took me a minute to remember what the last answer is ;)
-
Really, really hot?
:2funny:
-
I'm heading Becuna for their reenactment day - lunch in After Battery ... Yum! :smitten:
-
Last stage of fire: is it decay?
(thanks little birdy)
-
thanks little birdy...
Little birdy would not last too long. But yes, the last stage of a fire is decay. That occurs because the fire has consumed all fuel and O2. So there is nothing left to sustain the fire.
Good work little Birdy.
-
Lance,
tell your little birdy happy b'day ;) she's a friend of mine also and I remembered this morning to email her and wish her one.
NOW back to the TWO questions that I asked at the begining of this school of the boat :knuppel2:
1.) What is a Screaming Alpha???
2.) How do you put out a magnesium fire???
-
You would put out a Class D fire with a Type 1 or Type 2 Class D fire extinguisher which utilizes the following chemicals:
Type 1: (used for controling magnesium, sodium, potassium, sodium potassium alloys, uranium, and powdered aluminum fires) Uses sodium chloride to cake on the metal and smother the fire.
Type 2: (used for any class D fire including lithium) uses a copper based dry powder.
-
Alright folks it is Wed and it is time for JT to keep moving on with this block of instruction, so with that being said
A "Screaming Alpha" is a person who is on fire and screaming the hole time before either the fire on them is put out or they are overcome by the fire and yes as all of us know a person when burned leaves an ash IF they burn long enough and hot enough. And sadly I have seen it in person and heard the screams of the victim, it is not a pretty site nor will you ever forget that smell and for the first couple hours no matter how many showers and bath's you take you will not feel like you got that smell off of you.
For a Magnesium fire on a submarine the only thing to do (or at least what I was taught in the early 90's) was to COOL the surrounding area with as much water as you can put on it. The flares that were carried onboard used magnesium and the PYRO lockers have a flooding system to put as much water into that locker and then into the bilges as the fire main can handle and the only thing that we could do was cool the surrounding area to keep it from catching fire and burning more of the boat up. Obviously the boat if submerged would have to surface and start running the trim and drain pumps to get as much water out of the boat as possible and then head for the closest Naval Port at the best possible speed and hope that the magnesium doesn't burn through the hull and if it does hope like hell you have a DC plug big enough to fit the hole in the hull and that your crew is very proficient in that aspect of DC.
On a WWII diesel boat who's fire mains more then likely are inop and the boat catches fire the only thing that your can try to do is put a fire extinguisher or two on it and then shut the watertight doors and ventalation hull stops and try to contain the fire into that one compartment. And yes that means securing the electricity to the boat and evacuating the whole boat until the F&ES show up and you tell them what compartment it is in and that hopefully you have it contained to one compartment located in x compartment. The BIG reason why I keep telling you to get the hell out of the boat after you have tried immediate actions is because you don't have any self contained breathing apparatus' and a fire main ready to go in case of a fire. While I do know that Torsk has an OBA mounted and some canisters for it and a FFE and an operational P-100 with hoses to reach anywhere inside of the pressure hull, I would hesitate to use it unless there were TWO or more folks in OBA's and we had enough fire extinguishers/hoses for the job because you have to be on the buddy system when fighting these fires because if you lone ranger it and you become incapacitated you will become a casualty that the fire dept was not expecting to have to try to find and then remove you from the boat while they are fighting the fire.
-
I'm working on a question. My regular job is taking up way too much time (doing two jobs, plus this is tough).
-
Breathing is something we take for granted. It is however important. Prolonged submergence in a WWII Fleet Submarine will cause the original air in the submarine to become vitiated by the 1) reduced level of O2 and 2) by the increased level of CO2. This quiz falls more in to emergencies. However, part of the question is vitial to working in a damaged compartment. :buck2:
So my question is multi-part.
1. What are the upper acceptable levels of CO2?
2. What is the lower acceptable level of O2?
3. You are using chemical absorbents to reduce CO2, but you also need to stay submerged longer, what are you two options to revitalize the atmosphere?
4. Describe the locations and use of the oxygen system.
Lance, as you know Miners (not minors) where know to use little birds in cages. They took the birds down in the mines when working. Birds would collapse before a miner did when methane levels went too high.
-
The oxygen system on a diesel boat of WWII was called "O2 cylinders". They are placed in every compartment, usually hung in the overhead from brackets. The nukes have O2 generators that supply O2 banks. The banks can bleed inboard.
To remove CO2, the crew spread LiOH (lithium hydroxide) out on mattress covers and the chemical absorbed the CO2. Watch it, the stuff got hot when it reacted with CO2. The LiOH canisters were kind of oblong in the old days and after WWII they were round, gray cans. They were hung from brackets in the overhead or from the side of the pressure hull on brackets in every compartment. The torpedo rooms had hundreds of them, probably because these were the spaces where you would congregate in an escape attempt. Torsk has a bunch of these canisters which we found on the Trout. Razorback also has a bunch. I know Pampanito reproduced a bunch of the WWII type.
The nukes now adays use CO2 scrubbers and CO/H2 burners to remove unwanted gas. In an emergency, the bunk curtains are CO2 absorbant.
-
Correct for part of the questions. Here is a newer (from USS Albacore) CO2 canister
-
Hey Darrin,
What is this for?
-
I think that the reason why they tell you to always use dry powder on class D fires now is due to the fact that there are several metals included in class d fires that, when burning, actually speed up combustion when they get wet.
Also, the magnesium fire depends on it's surroundings, if near an iron alloy and sodium chloride (salt), it can actually feed itself when wet. The salt water reacts with the iron and magnesium which produces it's own heat and hydrogen gas. Since burning magnesium can consume carbon dioxide, oxygen, and hydrogen, it can in essence, feed itself for a short time once water is added. In short, you've just made an MRE heater. ;D
-
Great job Correy with the magnesium explanition,
and you hit a number of points that I didn't cover because the boats that I rode were almost always at sea and we had to worry about salt water hitting it and on the fire main it pulls in MORE salt water puts it into that area IF they did catch fire due to the fire hoses or the pyro locker flooding system being activated.. And yes there are a number of our museum boats still setting in salt water and that is one of those things that they have to worry about.
John,
Ahh my friend I know what that is and it is taking EVERYTHING that I have to keep from putting that up as my screen saver or wall paper.. IF'n I remember correctly that is the alcohol tanks gauge and IF'n I remember correctly not only is the inner ring brass the outer mounting ring is also. Take the 6 screws out and remove the float gauge out and clean it back up and re-install it once more and make the TM's proud once more (prop that float gauge up a little bit to show some fuel in the tank)
-
Yes Darrin - it is what you think. Torpedo alcohol tank from the forward room
-
The preverbial "pink lady" tank :coolsmiley: Never had one on a 688 but it wasn't too hard to finger out as to what it is and what it is for.. Ya might want to open that tank up and do a "visual inspection" on it to see if there is any residual liquid in the tank that may or may not be torpedo alcohol ;)