SUBMARINEMUSEUMS.ORG Forum
Individual Submarine Boards => USS Batfish (SS-310) => Topic started by: Mark Sarsfield on May 30, 2008, 09:18:47 AM
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Rick,
In the rare instance that the San Francisco sub vets want to swap one of thier base's 5" sub guns for something that we have, what would you consider letting go? One of our 3" sub guns is one idea. They might want some variety with their display or they might be looking to get rid of the old guns all together and put something else on display. I'm still waiting for my USSVI contact to get me a POC for the vets that actually hold sway over the sub base out there. I just thought that I'd put this out there for food for thought.
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THE CABOOSE!! :2funny:
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No one would miss that. Too bad it wouldn't look very good outside of a sub base commander's office. ::)
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I bet you could paint it gray and black and mount a gun on it....and that would get someone interested! :coolsmiley:
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We'll tell them that it's a smoking shack. Lots of smokers in the military.
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Small update. The USSVI vet that I have been talking to said that the display that they have at the Point Loma base are two 5" sub guns and a torpedo. He liked the idea of swapping a 3" gun for a 5" gun to give their display more variety. I think that we're getting the better deal. In the end, we'll just be paying for the shipping costs, which won't be cheap for a 7-ton gun... plus, crating. They can pay for the 3" gun to be shipped to them - or however it works out.
Anyway, he knows the base CO, base CMC (CoB), and the SUBVETS WWII president and he's very interested in pushing this idea to these gentlemen. I detected some real enthusiasm from him in the last email. So, cross your fingers.
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He liked the idea of swapping a 3" gun for a 5" gun
I like it too. As for the caboose, Rick told me a while ago that it was soon to be removed from the park.
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Sounds like both parties will benefit and all it'll take is money.
Is there a mount for the 5" gun?
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keep talking, Get me some idea as to how much the shipping would be. We can start workingo on logistics. The caboose has already been promised to the Music hall of fame. This move was made by Orvile Eatons family (he got the thing here in the first place). We will get a large brass plaque on the side of it for everyone that comes by to see. ;D
I am also working on getting an 8 ft guitar in the deal. This sounds stupid, but there is a method to my madness. :idiot2:
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I'll ask Chris from the Torsk what the estimated crating and shipping would be for something of this magnitude.
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Is there a mount for the 5" gun?
I started a thread in the museum sub-forum regarding this. I think that Tom from the Drum was going to take some photos of their mount for us. We also might have the shipyard plans for this item, as well, since it's a basic structure.
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I started talking to Chris from the Torsk and I need to take pictures of our gun so that he can determine whether we need to crate it or not - he doesn't think we do, but he wants to make sure. It will save some money if we can just ship the guns with a tarp covering on a flat bed or step deck.
Which 3" gun are we willing to part company with? As a sign of good gesture, we should send them the better of the two.
Also, we need to start thinking about a crane for these items. My guess is that the 3" gun is around 3 tons and Paul said that the 5" gun is about 7 tons.
Finally, I'm 99.9% sure that the 3" guns are de-milled, which means that he won't need a special escort for the truck for an active weapon.
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....Finally, I'm 99.9% sure that the 3" guns are de-milled, which means that he won't need a special escort for the truck for an active weapon.
Scenes from Smokey and the Bandit just flashed through my mind... :2funny:
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Which 3" gun are we willing to part company with? As a sign of good gesture, we should send them the better of the two.
I agree...but why don't we send them photo's of both and let them decide which on they want...this will take care of any potential problems later if they pick.
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have we already told them that we have 2?
I am a greed cuss and will be inclined to keep the pick of the litter for my museum....
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I told them that we have two, but I never mentioned that one was better than the other. You have the final say. I was just putting in my 2 cents.
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Ok put the whip away, here are photos of the 5" mount below the deck level
Tom Bowser
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Weres all the plumbing. We have all of the exhaust in the way on the after deck and I know of 4 storage lockers in the forward deck.
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This is under the forward deck. unfortunately when the Park first got the boat they attacked it with cutting torches and removed almost everything under the deck. The only things left are the engine exhaust valves and the deck gun mounts, I guess they were too big. One of the people involved I hate to say was a Drum crewman from when it was a reserve boat and the other became the maintance supervisor who retired two years ago and then was rehired as an consultant and he is still there giving suggestions on the batleship to just cut it off and throw it away. Those two did more historical damage to the boat than anyone and I won't let the consultant anywhere near the boat now. I am going to have to make a trip up there one day to see the Batfish.
Tom Bowser
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Glad you realized it was at the Sub Base in SAN DIEGO... you go to San Fran and you'll end up with no gun (but flowers in your hair...) :2funny:
What does it cost to ship a 7 ton gun? Well if you're lucky, nothing. COD's was delivered one day with 24 hrs notice. Our director kept trying to get a bill for several years and then tried to say thank you to the trucking company for donating the haul from Keyport, WA to Cleveland, OH... finally he was told to "clam up" on the haul -- as in "what haul?" "We don't know about any stinking hauling of a 7-ton gun!!" We finally got the idea.
We had an angel with ties to a trucking firm. We have actually had to pay for hauling 40 mm guns... but like the 5 in. gun, there really is no crating involved. The Gun sat on its wide mounting circle with some tie downs, but no structural crating that I recall. I will check with others involved in receiving the gun to confirm this. When you ship items like guns, the trucking company needs to know how to classify the load... apparently there is a big old catalog of categories... and some categories carry special provisions... like the gal on the phone who was all set to give me a price for the 40mm guns I needed to have shipped to COD and was about the quote it on "Guns... operational, military, DoD, ATF-registered" which was about four times the cost of shipping "Guns, ORNAMENTAL." Later I was told by someone that shipping the damn things as "Scrap metal" would have been even cheaper and involved less paperwork."
If an angel doesn't flutter down on alabaster wings, let me suggest you put the word out among all friends and visitors that you need someone in the interstate trucking/hauling business. Remember, time is on your side.. they can haul it when cheap and convenient since your sub has gone without the gun for so many decades, a few weeks or days will not matter.
Another point I want to make... your 3-in. gun is probably a surface 3-in 50 cal... not the submarine mount. The USN had Nash-Kelvinator Co. make the damn things in the thousands for use on everything from minesweepers to DEs... They were good dual-purpose guns... that is they were rapid firing for surface targets and had the ability to engage aircraft... but another technical innovation, the proximity fused 5-in. round made them all obsolete. So the USN shipped them ashore as fast as they could. Rather than try and swap, let the vets know what you need. The decision on what to replace any wet mount gun with at Ballast Point Submarine Base's submarine memorial is up to the NAVY... and they would likely be inclinded to add a more modern reference to the memorial plaza, say a missile body. Again,this is not some Arab camel trading bazaar... but rather a natural and intelligent process by which a lawn ornament finds its way back home where it belongs! The vets don't own the plaza so design matters will be more in the lap of some NAVY officer than the local vets. But their permission is needed to get the wheels turning. Good luck. It's nice to realize some progress on a process I started over a decade ago.
Paul Farace
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Once we rip up the after deck, we'll have a better idea of where this mount might be able to fit. It's quite possible that we ended up putting the AC units where the mount used to be. If that's the case, we can still put the gun forward. There should be plenty of room to get around it on deck and down the FTR stairwell. It's probably a decision that has to be made sooner than later, since we'll be pulling up the forward deck first.
Tom, What are the rough dimensions of the mount? Mainly the diameter of the base.
Right now the shipping estimate is $8,700, which includes hauling the 3" gun out to San DIEGO and the 5" back to us. No crating will be required. Only tie-downs and a tarp. I will ask about the scrap metal fees and see if they would be willing to cut us a break, but diesel is pretty pricey.
I will inform the base and vets that we might/probably have surface ship mounts. I plan to send them photos, anyway. If we are lucky, they won't want any of our guns and will prefer to modernize their display, as Paul has suggested.
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I just got word from the shippers that you pay for the truckload, regardless of what is classified as being on the truck. Can't say I blame with with high diesel costs.
It might not be a bad idea to wait until summer is over and hopefully gas prices come down a little. It may take that long to work this whole deal, anyway. Ideally, it would be nice to have the mount ready for the gun, so that the crane can install it when the truck arrives. It will save some money on crane rentals. Maybe we should pick a target date for fall or next spring. This will buy us some time to get the boat in order and maybe give the Foundation some time to raise a little cash for this part of the restoration.
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Here's an email from Rich Pekelney. I told him that I think that the Batfish museum has a collection management plan and that the San Diego base was open to giving a deck gun to a sub about 4 years ago as long as the local vets bought into it. I also told him about our efforts to obtain the battleship mast, the Mk 14 and Mk 27 torpedoes, and the Batfish nuke boat bell.
...I will explain the history, but at this point Pampanito has traded the 4" 50 cal wet mount we got (very interesting story) in the 1980s for a 5" 25 cal missing lots of parts. So we have a 5" 25 cal and will need to do some replicating of parts that are missing.
Before we made this trade I had twice approached the base commander in an attempt to arrange a trade of the the two guns (to go to ship
museums) for something else that would replace them at Ballast Point.
This was key, the base commanders were both OK with the idea of trading the guns but whatever was put in their place had to be appropriate and acceptable to the Sub Vets of WW II. Of course this would all be administered through the Naval Historical Center once we had agreement in principle.
Has Batfish gotten its collection management plan approved with NHC?
Back in 1998 Mark Allen, Ken Recoy and I discussed trading an empty TDC Mark IV shell that came with the Roncador conning tower for the
low pressure blower (or JT Sonar). We were just talking about the
possibilities, but since the materials belonged to the Navy they could only be traded with the permission of the NHC. Batfish did not have an approved collection management plan at the time and therefore was not eligible for additional loans or the transfer.
Take a look at the enclosed photos I shot in Oct last year. This memorial looks good. The two flanking guns on the conning tower is pretty nice. The trick to getting agreement from everybody will be finding something very appropriate that also looks great. We were considering torpedoes, but we never found the right replacement that would please everyone. Of course the folks involved have all rotated out and you will have a fresh start.
rich
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I told him that I think that the Batfish museum has a collection management plan
As far as I know, one is not in place. True, Rich and I talked about it, but at that time Ken was top dog on the board and he wanted to handle it within the board...and I don't think it ever got written...handed off to some one else who then dropped it. We had 2 different volunteers that wanted to write it, but the board at that time told us "no" and that "they'd handle it"...and that's as far as it went.
Rick might know if it ever got written. If not, it should be a priority after, in not concurrent with, the deck work.
My 2 cents.
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Sorry I was slow getting the measurements for the 5" base for you but I got busy and forgot.
The outside diameter on deck is 57 1/4"
the top ring under the deck is 47"
the center hole is 21"
Do you need more?
Tom Bowser
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You get one from someone with a similar ship... you read it carefully, learn from it, ingest it, then you try your best to follow it after you copy it, change the name of said ship and contact people, and then submit it to the NHC.
PF
:tickedoff:
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Yes we do and it is policy as approved by the Muskogee War Memorial Board of Trustees.
I learned early on that this is very important to our relations with the various organizations out there. This policy is moldeled after the NHSA guide lies. IThe policy is available to any whow would like a copy.
Rick
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Yes we do and it is policy as approved by the Muskogee War Memorial Board of Trustees.
Outstanding...I was not aware of this. So now...lets go get some stuff :D
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We definately are.
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Do I have to put an armed sentry on the COD's brow?
PF
:knuppel2:
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Just ingnor the small people in black outfits sneeking through the back fence at night. :angel:
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Based on the gun mount blue prints, the center of the 5" gun mount on the rear deck will be about 27 feet from the base of the sail. I think that this will easily clear the AC units back there, since they look like they are about 15 feet from the sail.
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Also keep in mind we are missing anywhere between 5 and 10 ft of sail.....
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I didn't realize that much had been hacked off. So, the mount center will be over 30 feet from the sail base.
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Yes I have been doing some checking. It appears that the sail actually enclosed the hatch to the galley just like forward ammo hatch. Also remember that there were stoage hatches on the after sail as well. These were cut off long ago.
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That makes sense that the galley hatch was covered. I remember seeing pictures with a doorway cut out on the aft sail. That would be a huge undertaking to extend the sail that far back. Something that I recommend that we don't try. It's a miracle that Vaughn was able to moutn the 40mm back there. How much of the front of the bridge is missing?
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Guys,
I don't think the "after battery hatch" on any fleet boat was covered by the conning tower fairwater. Even on the Gatos, with their long fairwater, it did not cover the after battery hatch. On photos I've seen of Balao boats with the after battery hatch open, it is clear that the fairwater began tapering before it got to the after battery hatch in the superstructure deck.
Fred
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Well, I learn something every day. Thanks for correcting that perception, Tom. Did you guys manage to download the gun mount drawings before Rich pulled it from the maritime server?
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You confused me with Fred about the aft battery hatch post but I agree with him that hatch was in the open to make easier to load stores and ammo.
I didn't go after the 5" mount plans, we have both mounts.
Tom Bowser
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Here is a question for BATFISH... do you still have your gun access trunk on the forward end of the Conning Tower???
This was built into the Balaos when the Gatos lost their doors on the back end of the CT barrel -- to allow the gun crews to run topisde from the forward end of the control room.
If you have lost it, then you have a choice to make in terms of focus date:
1. interpret BATFISH as a dockside streamlined fleetboat -- basically as she was whe she left service (no CT gun deck extensions, no deck guns, etc.).
2. restore her to a pre-dockside streamline (I am not sure I am using the correct term, must check The Fleet Sub bible), which would mean -- to do it right -- replacing the missing trunk (good luck, this would be the most involved hull work ever attempted on a memorial boat -- we are good at chopping stuff off their hulls, but not putting stuff back!) and restoring the CT fairwater to what it looked like at the end of 1945...
My 2 cents worth...
BATFISH is a submarine with a proud history and regardless of how her CT looks today, she earned a place in sub history. The modifications made in her final years of service were legitimate US Navy alterations to streamline the boat (admittedly at least cost to them) and I would try to accept that... it saves you the hassel of getting guns and trying to fabricat an 8-ton trunk with two hatches and a door!! Check out Pampanito and Bowfin for how this thing looks.
IF not, you end up with a Frankenstein (is bastardized any better of a word to use?) sub that is not true to any period of her service. Again, people still want to see a submarine. This stuff is just to make us happy.
In some earlier posts the idea was put forth that the average visitor wouldn't care if something was done one way or another... true!
But that should never be anyone's goal. We achieve success by trying to impress the experts (you and I, and the guys who were there). Everything (and everyone) else falls into place.
Something to think about.
PF
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We do have the access trunk and it just needs a little TLC to brighten it up. Vaughn got the emergency light working in the FTR escape trunk and it would be nice to get the one working in the gun access trunk, again. I thought our emergency lights were KIA, because I couldn't get the one in the CT to work, but it may have been a fuse issue.
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Mark, do you have any old contact info for this thread? I want to resurrect the 5" gun trade. ;D
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Any luck contacting the San Diego USSVI base?
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That is on my list for tomorrow. ;D Robert J. Bissonnette base Commander and (POC) is where I'll start.