SUBMARINEMUSEUMS.ORG Forum
General Boards => Museum Submarine Discussion => Topic started by: Viejo on February 21, 2011, 12:30:35 AM
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Thought I posted this, but can't find it, so if I did, sorry about that.
We want to put back the teak decking on the Marlin, but don't have any to see what the size of each piece is. I was wondering if most subs used the same width and thickness for their decking? I'll include a picture showing the Marlin with decking on it. Looks to me like maybe around 2 and 1/4" wide and maybe 3/4 or 7/8" thick. We do have access to a planer if needed.
Thanks,
Viejo
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These two files have the measurements for the batens used aboard Torsk. The dimensions were taken from the BUSHIPS drawing for the deck on Torsk.
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Thanks, that will give me something to go by. I'll measure the spacing and the center to center to the fastners, but I'll bet the Marlin uses the same size. I had no idea they used 6/4 lumber for thickness.
Viejo
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We are replacing the decking right now with something called ipe, which is a Brazilian hardwood. It is supposed to be more durable than teak. It is certainly a hard wood. Drilling and cutting is a job for some tough bits and blades. If you decide to use it, follow the recommendations about painting. It needs to cure for quite a while before it can be painted or coated. It actually turns a nice grayish black color as it ages. So far, we have no plans to paint over it because it looks pretty good as it is.
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thanks for the info. That is like walnut and as you said is very hard. Trying to figure costs differences, but some sources seem to indicate it is cheaper than teak. Can you tell me the sizes of the decking you are putting down? I was surprised to find out that some is 1 1/2 inches thick.
Thanks,Viejo
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Batfish deck is being replaced with Brazilian Purple Heart Wood. According to a wood hardness table that I found a while ago, it's about 2/3 the hardness of teak. I think the museum spent something like $36,000 on the wood 6 years ago. Granted, we have at least 2X the area to cover as you would on the Marlin. This wood will definitely need to be painted and there is a special process to get the paint to stick. It turns a light haze gray color once it dries out.
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Mark, one place I found for the IPE listed a 2 x 12 as 17 dollars a lineal foot, but if I fudged a little and got six pieces out of that, it would make it less than Three dollars a lineal foot. That would be less than $5000 if I am looking at the deck in the right way. In looking at the pictures of the decking on the Marlin, looks to me like around 200 sq ft. This boat is pretty small compared to a normal sub. Don't think we have 30 feet in length for the wood decking and the biggest part is only about six feet wide. Now they said on one site I read, not to paint or stain the IPE for several years/months. Have to go look it up again. think one guy said he didn't plan on painting at all. But wonder if it would be good to paint or do something on the underside. I'll do a lot of reading on whatever we get. I know American Walnut takes 5 years before you are even supposed to work with it.
I'll read up on the Purple Heart Wood also. I have used that Ironwood for a wood project, but don't remember if it is used for decking. It was very hard to work with.
Thanks for your info also.
Viejo
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That is definitely a much smaller area to cover than on the Bat-boat. We have over 2,000 sq. ft to cover with wood. It will be three years this upcoming Memorial Day since we started working on the deck. A lot longer than my "this will only take 1 year!" estimate. :buck2: On average our guys can put down about 12 - 15 boards per work day.
Now I know why the boats were mostly shell-backed back during the war. Not only for more protection, but also because it takes a lot less effort to install a large metal plate than it does to bolt down countless boards over the same area.
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Someone at sometime, put like a stiff fencing in place of the decking. It is fine to walk on, but want to put the wood back up and also the handrails and lines so we can let people, with supervision, walk up there. The problem is there is only about 6 " of decking to stand on while walking around the sail and one side has a rotted away handrail of which wei'll have to fix. This wil be a good project for our Stratcom guys. I'll bring up an extra radial arm saw and have a cheap source for carbide blades and bits. So should be fun to do. It's supposed to be nice weather tomorrow, so will get some measuring done.
Should maybe post this in a separate post, but am going to talk to the paint store the city uses to find out whether a smaller airless or a good sized HVLP system would work the best to try and paint as much as possible of the walls, wires, and pipes on the insides. I have used HVLP, but am leaning toward using an airless to get better control of the pattern. HVLP, when using a pressurized system can be tricky to keep it going on uniformly.
Viejo
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not sure where you got the info on purple heart vs teak, but on the Janka scale Teak has a hardness of 1000, purpleheart is 1650.
granted green teak will sink, which is why it was installed on the decks of subs to prevent floating deck giving away position during depth charging
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Mark put up this info:Batfish deck is being replaced with Brazilian Purple Heart Wood. According to a wood hardness table that I found a while ago, it's about 2/3 the hardness of teak.
Here is probably the chart you were looking at or a similar one. There are a lot of variables in the same woods. Some of the american woods no longer match what they used to be, because they used to be cut mainly from heart wood and now are frequently cut from sap wood due to being a lot younger trees that grow in more open spaces. Also where it is grown makes a big difference. So Teak and IPE are about the same at around 3500. Purple Heart is from 1860-2090 depending on how it is spelled. Also of course, how much resistance a piece of wood has to mold and insects makes a difference.
WOOD SPECIES RATING
California Redwood 420
Douglas Fir 660
Southern Yellow Pine (loblolly & short leaf) 690
Honduran Mahogany 800
African Mahogany 830
South American Lacewood 840
Southern Yellow Pine (longleaf) 870
Black Cherry 950
American Black Walnut
American Black Walnut Hardwood Flooring 1010
Peruvian Walnut 1080
Brazilian Eucalyptus 1125
Teak 1155
Bamboo (carbonized) 1180
Larch 1200
Heart Pine 1225
Caribbean Heart pine 1240
Yellow Birch 1260
Red Oak (Northern) 1290
American Beech 1300
Ash 1320
White Oak 1360
Australian Cypress 1375
Bamboo (natural) 1380
Royal Mahogany 1400
Hard maple 1450
African Walnut/Sappelle 1500
Brazlian Maple 1500
Zebrawood 1575
Wenge 1630
Brazilian Oak 1650
Bamboo 1650
Patens 1691
Peruvian Maple 1700
Kempas 1710
African Pedauk (Padeuk/African Cherry) 1725
Bolivian Rosewood /Morado 1780
Hickory/Pecan 1820
Kempas 1854
Purpleheart 1860
Jarrah 1910
Amendoim 1912
Merbau 1925
African Rosewood (Bubinga) 1980
Grapia 2053
Jarrah 2082
Purple Heart 2090
Tigerwood 2160
Burma Mahogany 2170
Amberwood 2200
Cabreuva (Santos Mahogany) 2200
Caribbean Rosewood 2300
Mesquite 2345
Brazilian Cherry (Jatoba) 2350
Peruvian Cherry 2350
Red Walnut 2450
African Cedar / Bosse 2600
Patagonian Rosewood 2800
Bloodwood 2900
Brazilian Rosewood (Tamarindo) 3000
Brazilian Redwood 3190
Tiete Rosewood 3280
Cumaru (Brazilian Teak) 3540
Southern Chestnut, Tiete Chestnut 3540
Lapacho (usually grouped with IPE Wood)
Ipe Lumber 3640
Bolivian Cherry 3650
African Pearwood/Moabi 3680
Brazilian Walnut / Ipe
Ipe Decking 3680
Brazilian Ebony 3692
Patagonian Rosewood 3840
Brazilian Tiger Mahogany 3840
Curupy
3880
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Just found out that Ironwood ( trademark name) is the same as IPE. So I have worked with it and it is hard, but finishes nicely. Went up to the Marlin today and measured and 200 sq ft will cover the part of the deck that had wood on it. Saw that they were using 5/16" bolts. We'll have to drill them out. Figured out from spacing of bolts that the wood must have been 2 1/2" wide and it was 1 1/2" in thickness. So think it will run around $3500 to buy the wood. Maybe as much in bolts, drill bits and saw blades. LOL Actually if you use an actual rip blade when cutting any hardwood, your saw pulls about 20% less amps and the saw blade doesn't get near as dull as using a combination blade. I look forward to someday getting started on putting a wood deck back on the Marlin. In reading about IPE, it said that the deck could last up to 40 years without a sealer and up to 100 years if you used one. Not sure I'll ever prove that one way or the other, but maybe a great grandkid can. I'll put up some pictures of the deck, probably on the Freedom Park page in the next few days.
Viejo
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Just a suggestion on hardware. If you have brass recycle them. we were able to recover about 85% of the brass hardware that was on the Batfish. this prvided hardware for 70% of the deck we had to lay down. Removal was not that hard to do and saved us a ton of $$$ end the end.
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Rick,
I haven't cut one out yet, but from the looks, they are 2 inch 5/16" carriage bolts of steel. Most are gone with just the holes left. What is there is pretty much rusted. I"ll cut some out to make sure.
Viejo
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You guys are right. Purple Heart is a lot denser than Teak. The table that I had found must have had the wrong information.
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The one thing I have found in trying to get facts about the museum ships is that you can't trust any source until you compare. I have been trying to find commissioning dates for the Marlin and have three Navy articles, all of which contradict each other. I'm pretty sure it was not commissioned when put in service, but haven't been able to get any of the previous Commanding Officers to state when the Commissioning date was. I have a notion it is when it went from being T-2 to Marlin, but can't confirm it so far. So not surprised that charts of lumber might not always agree. As mentioned above, the older charts were put together with old growth lumber and now with new growth, span considerations, compression figures, etc all have been changing.
Viejo