SUBMARINEMUSEUMS.ORG Forum
Individual Submarine Boards => USS Batfish (SS-310) => Topic started by: Darrin on December 16, 2008, 10:22:36 PM
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Here we go folks,
You Batfish guys may actually be able to back haul your weapons without too much trouble, it took me a while to find the pics that I needed, and after reviewing them it may be worth it to back haul your weapons (at least in the fwd room)..
Granted these pics are a few years old it gives me enough to work off of, pic 1 is the pic of your muzzle door, I didn't realize that you no longer have shutter doors and that makes a BIG difference when trying to make this happen, second is you really don't need a big fork lift for this to happen so NOW I finally understand why you all wanted to do it this way.
Detailed description of pic 1, you will see a bar that is keeping your muzzle door shut, that bar will have to be cut off. There are 2 grease lines (upper and lower) that will need to be taken off and replaced with zerk fittings and you will have to chip all of the paint off around the hinges prior to putting grease to these fittings so that you will be able to accuratly see the grease coming out. Personally I like using tubes 1 or 2 because there is so much more room for people to PULL on the block and tackle, that and using 1 or 2 the chance of leakage won't be as bad in case of flooding. There are 2 rubber snubbers in the right side of the pic, those were for the shutter door to set against when the door was open so it didn't rattle and on the left side of the muzzle door you will see what looks like mounting bracket for a large pin to go through to attach the shutter door and that is exactly what it did.
Detailed description of pic 2.. Pic 2 is a shot of the inside of one of your tubes in the fwd room(tube 2 I think), what you will see is there are 3 pins sticking out that will have to be retracted before you can EVEN think about doing this... They are the stop bolt, depth and angle setting pins (IF I remember correctly). Next you will see on the left side of the tube is the FLOOD port and the VENT port, about half way down the tube you will see the DRAIN port and a set of rollers. Also if you look you will see that there has been water standing inside of this tube with the door shut, and if you look straight up you will see the guide track for the weapon. This track if nothing else will have to be cleaned and greased and verified with a block that this is even true (The block should be the same diameter of the guide shoes and be roughly 1'-2' long to check for binding inside your tubes)
To clean the tubes, warm soapy water tends to do well with a green scrub pad to take the scaling off and once dried you will need to apply a light coat of grease (Heavy mineral oil is recommended) so that there is nothing that can bind your weapon up. Remember that these tubes are gauged at 21.08 inches in diameter (688's are 21.125") and your weapons are 21" in diameter also you have .08 clearance to mess with.
Here is the link for the tubes for those whom would like to look at it... again courtesy of HNSA
http://www.hnsa.org/doc/fleetsub/tubes/index.htm
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Any reason not to grease down the torpedo before starting this? Anything to cut down on friction might help. :-\
Use caution and go very slow. This whole thing will depend on the condition of your torpedo. Old and beat up - this will be difficult.
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Thank you, This is a great bit of information for us to have.
This will be a big help
Rick
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Forgot to attach the pics, will do that when I get home so you will know what I am talking about in regards to the muzzle door and to the inside of the tubes. John does have a good point in regards to greasing the weapons prior to putting them in the tubes, a very light coat is really all that is needed after you have cleaned and maintained your tubes. It would be a good idea for you to put a decent amount of grease at the muzzle door area and at the back of the weapon where it goes to it's full 21" diameter and on the guide rails.
Another problem with back hauling your weapons is on the guide rail, it from what I remember does not have a taper to it on the end of the tube. On the breech door side there is a taper allowing the weapon to rotate just a little if needed, so that means that you will have to have a way to rotate your weapon right or left (pushing or pulling so that it aligns up correctly with the guide rail) Please be carefull if you think that you can use the warhead and the mounting bracket for the nose cone, IF your weapon has been on display for a number of years without too much maintenance at all you can break that portion of the weapon off. A few years ago there was a weapon on display who's warhead had fallen off due to the mounting bracket rotting out completely, sadly I don't remember which boat had that problem now and now that weapon's only real use is to have the after body sticking out of a tube for display.
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Here's the pics, sorry about that folks
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After looking at the pics of the muzzle/shutter door area again and again there isn't really any good way for you to be able to back haul your weapons without a crane and even then it will be tough. Reason behind it is the small clearances of the upper and lower part of your shutter door area and the lack of space to allow rollers or something along that lines to help you with loading those weapons.
What do you think JT and John???
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Looking at the pictures I can say a fork lift to get the torpedoes on the small shelf type area. But, some type of roller contraption would have to be made and also measured to the exact height of the muzzle. Once on the rollers, push the torpedo into the tube. Lube the tube of course. The roller set up would not have to be an engineering marvel really. Still, this is a heavy weapon and caution needs to be taken.
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Keep the information comming. This is all good. I do not want you all to think I am not taking this load seriously, but there are a lot of considerations to be taken into play here. You have pointed out a lot of the issues that I have been working on in my head.
Rick
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Well, if the USS Seal got their torpedo back in the tube when it was mistakenly fired while in Pearl, I think it can happen for the USS Batfish. Just need to think out a good plan. As a side note, the USS Seal removed the warhead. Because, it was loaded with TNT or torpex and it lighten the load. Yours has no explosives but taking off some items to lighten the load would be helpful. Food for thought!
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Food for thought with your Mk 14 and how much it really weighs
Diameter 21
Length, over all, with war head or exercise head 246
Length of war head or exercise head, from end of nose piece to joint line 47.28 Mk 16
Length of air flask, from joint line to joint line 116.16
Length of afterbody, from joint, line to joint line 63.38
Length of tail, from joint line to end 19.19
Weights (pounds)
Explosive charge 66.6 TPX(16-1)
600 TPX(16-4)
War head, empty, without attachments 264
War head, loaded, with attachments, ready for firing, or exercise head ready for firing 1057(16-4)
843(30-1)
1053(16-l, 30-4)
Exercise head, empty 429(30-1), 503(30-4)
Torpedo, empty, without war head or exercise head (and attachments) 1838 ± 20
Torpedo, with war head or exercise head, (30-4), ready for war shot or exercise shot 3282±20 (16-1, 16-4, 30-4)
3073 (30-1)
While I can only hope that yours weighs the 1838 lbs I would bet it weighs closer to the 3074 lbs. The Mk 14 warhead had 660 lbs of TORPEX, depending on the mod number is, granted your TORPEX has long since been removed it is just food for thought because the Navy liked to fill the warhead area back up with concrete and even plaster of paris from what I have seen/heard, so the weight of your warhead and the weapon is truly an unknown until you put it on a scale.
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There are practice torpedos that do not match normal weights. Most surplus torpedos left today are not really a torpedo that has had the Torpex removed.
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OK Batfish crew, John and I are having the same problem with the weight of these weapons.... before we really go any farther they need to be weighed and giving the book answer doesn't help because IF one of these weapons break loose while loading them IF you are lucky the only thing that will happen is that it will get scratched along with the hull and a few bends here and there on both and if you are unlucky and a crewmember is inbetween it and a hard object :-[
Both of us agree that they need to be loaded using a crane and the next best option is using the A frame, following that?? IF you can't get a crane due to the sand and the bowl that your boat is setting in then who knows.. I am here in Va and I can't give much guidance other then looking at pics of the boat and trying to figure out how to help you.
There is one more option that we haven't explored which is getting USSVI involved and seeing IF there are some local TM's or Seabee's who are willing to come out and have a look at it and give you the best way to go with this.
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Backloading is a challenge (didn't I already say that?). I would sugguest that you figure a way to practice this on dry land first. You can rid a second torpedo skid and practice pulling the torpedo from one skid to another and then back. At least you will get some idea of what is involved and how to place all of your ropes.
To backhaul you may need to run lines through the torpedo tubes and you will need to fashion something for a nose cradle.
I sure wish I knew the weight of your torpedo. You will need a some idea.
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:) I had one of those moments and came up with another idea. What you need is something to practice with that is almost as heavy as the torpedo and about the same length and shape. So go ask your local electric utility if they have an old power pole that you can have and tell them what you plan on doing. Once you have the power pole you can practice all you need to sharpen your skills in moving around a large heavy weapon.
My other idea comes from a story about something I did for my cousin’s father-in-law. This old guy (now gone) was once a pilot with the Flying Tigers and flew with them in China. So he had lots of stories. Well he was a Ham radio operator and one day asked me if I could get him an old power pole. At the time I worked for a big electric utility. So I asked one of our line foreman and he said he would keep an eye out for one.
Well one day this line foreman called me and asked for the address so he could deliver the old guy his power pole. It was close to one of our service yards and off he went. I knew nothing about it from that point on. Well that night I get a call from the old guy just gushing with thanks. I said no problem. Well the old guy would have none of that – he told me that the line crew with big rig showed up with a brand new 100’ pole. The foreman then asked him where he wanted the pole. The old guy said just put it in the back and some day he get help putting it up, No, no said the foreman, where do you want us to set the pole. The old guy showed him the spot. The line crew dug a hole (using the big rig takes just s few minutes), swung the pole up and put it into the hole, set the pole and then installed a few guy wires for safety. To the day that man died I never heard the end of this story. He was so happy and could only think that I was some sort of big shot!
So my other idea is to have the utility company help you. You do not want to go down to the business office. Go to the service yard and see if you can talk to the yard foreman or manager. Then tell him what you want to do and if there is a way that he can help. The rigs they use to set power poles would be ideal for you. They are large and capable of moving poles that are well over 100’ long and setting them in the ground. This rig can pick up a pole that is lying flat on a skid and raising it up to set it in the ground. The utility guys are also expert riggers.
I think what you want to do is get the torpedo onto a loading skid (you may need to craft one) that is positioned in front of your tube. The pole setting rig should be able to lift your torpedo and move it over to the loading rig. After that all you need to do is pull the fish into the tube. But the worst part would be done.
Utilities are big on helping out in communities, so I think they just might help. And it’s for free! :smitten:
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Don't you guys have that pipe company across the street from you? Perhaps a stop by and explaining your plan and their input (plus equipment) is in order. They have a forklift correct?
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The pipe yard does have a forklift. it is not hard to convince them to help us out. In fact they are the ones that come over and unloaded the torpedos from the transport traileer. Again the problem is getting a craine that can go on the the grounds and load the torpedos from the ground to the deck some 20+ feet.
I have not entirely given up the ides of disassembling the torpedos and loading them that way.
Rick
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Cost effective to disassemble the torpedo. Also, with todays technology, using digital cameras to take pictures of the disassembly for reference in putting it back together is a plus. Perhaps each piece could be positioned by the muzzle using block and pulley off the deck. Just tossing out ideas here. :uglystupid2:
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Folks,
John brought up a good idea which is that you need to start to practice moving the weapons or a simulated weapon around so that you can understand how a 21' X 21" pipe swings. IF you can find all of your parts (or make the missing ones) for your A frame, why don't you set that up in the yard that you actually have the weapons at and build a wooden platform or something to mount it on so that you can start to practice picking them up and moving them right and left and then lowering them to a new location. Once you have the proper distances of the A frame see IF it will fit up forward on the bow so that it can be put there temporarly so that there will not be a requirement for a crane to come down and that will also knock out a lot of concerns that I have about shifting the weapons on a platform and into the shutter door area.
You may have to build a small platform to put the weapons on when bringing them down to the boat on the forklift so that you can get them safely to the boat and then only have to put blocks under the weapons once you start to load them while you reposition your sling instead of trying to put rollers underneath the weapons hoping that you have the clearances close enough to work.
There are instructions online showing you how to completely disassemble a Mk 14 and there is a good bit of stuff to do to it IF it still has all of the guts inside it. I am pretty sure that Correy (the UH-60 mechanic) could figure out just by looking at the book, the biggest thing about the disassembly is that you don't have to disassemble the entire thing only the warhead from the air flask and the air flask from the engine group. There is a chance (small one I hope) that there is still air pressure in the air flask so obviously this would have to be taken apart very slowly.
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I've done enough UH-60 1000 hr phases in my day that this CAN'T be any harder than those. :buck2:
I mean, with a good manual you almost have to TRY to jack it up. :uglystupid2:
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Well Correy, Here ya go... NO IETM for this one :knuppel2: Chapter 8 may be of interst too you and the Batfish crew... hint hint, wink, wink ;)
The Mk 27 from what I have been told is a relatively easy weapon to disassemble with nothing more then a standard rachet set, it would be a good idea to remove the batteries if they haven't been done so already.
Here's da link,
http://www.hnsa.org/doc/torpedo/index.htm
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This shouldn't be too difficult. ;)
As long as we take it slow and document document document, we should be able to do this.
It looks as though the warhead is going to be the heaviest part. How much weight are we talking per section? It would be nice if we could just get several guys to carry each of the lighter sections.
Purely a curiosity question here, I'm sure the military wouldn't let anything out that would be active but what's the possibility of there still being torpex inside the warhead? I noticed that they removed the detonator gear but am curious about the "bad" stuff.
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Correy,
ALL of the explosives have been removed and your warhead either has concrete or plaster of paris in it if anything at all. The last warshot Mk 14's were demilled in 2004 and these weapons were stored in a warhouse for many years until a former TMCM found them and was given permission to demill them. Those weapons as far as I know of have all found new homes with the submarine museum community...
Here's the link to the demil process which you may find quite interesting IF you haven't seen this before
http://as15-burninbush.com/MK14%20PROJECT.html
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Correy each section was pretty much balanced weight wise. There was over 600 lbs of explosives in the warhead. Overall weight was about 3,000 lbs.
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And if you read the rest of the traffic on the torpedo loadout's you will see it has been posted OR you could go and dig it up in the manual that I linked in.. The bare bones shell of all three pieces and the screws on it weighs a little over 1,000 lbs and it normally weighs in closer to 3,000. I wouldn't gut that weapon out unless you absolutely had to and there is no reason to, you will have to disconnect some things but remember that the only thing that you are disassembeling is the warhead from the air flask and the air flask from the engine group.
This isn't like having to take the transmission out of a UH-60, where the main rotor's have to come off then the rotor hub and then disconnect the nose gear boxes and then the wiring and the control's before you even start to put any rigging on it to pull it out.
Sorry that there is no IETM for you to use Correy, this is a tough project but not as tough as what you and I both have done to keep our respective airframes in the air flying and taking the fight to the bad guys.
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With only three major components, I think that this shouldn't be too difficult. It looks like the hardest part will actually be just handeling the weight. I guess we're at the point of do or die so I'll keep studying and formulate a gameplan until Rick decides exactly what he wants to do.
Thanks for all your help.
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Correy,
this isn't "do or die" time this is "practice and then do" time, for those of us that have loaded weapons on the boats this is not a task to be taken too lightly because those weapons can and will kill you for the fun of it. (kinda like loading the AH-64D after not sleeping for 3 days)
John and I both agree that the crew needs to PRACTICE how to move these weapons so you have an idea as to how they react, IF you are going to back haul them then there is a stand that may have to be built and there are a LOT of variables that need to be looked at prior to doing anything other then talking about what would be best for those handeling these weapons.
On Torsk our last Mk 14 load out we had a dozen or more folks topside working on bringing down slowly with MULTIPLE backups in case that weapon broke loose and we had 4 folks in the FWD room recieving it and once onboard it was strapped down to a skid and then MULTIPLE chain falls were used to pick it up and then swing it into place AFTER there were a number of folks there to help it into place.
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I think I may have been misunderstood. I'm saying that it's time to get a game plan and plan out what we need to do. I'm by no means saying that we need to jump headfirst into this willy-nilly. That will no doubt get someone seriously hurt.
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Sorry about that, I did misread your post and thought that you were pushing ahead without going through every option available. Hey Correy your Reserve unit doesn't have an Atlas by chance does it?? (10K forklift with extendable boom and is able to turn the cradle and the cab to maintain it being level) because that would cure all of your ill's if you could talk them into bringing it over to the Batfish for "Operator training" one weekend ;)
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No problem. I don't get easily offended. ;)
We had one at one time but the Great State of Oklahoma decided that the motorpool parking lot in Oklahoma City needed it more than we did. Now the best we have is a very small, very anemic forklift that runs only if the good Lord shines his light your way.
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Too bad because that Atlas would have allowed you to put the weapons right on the deck or helped in back hauling your weapons, so now ya need to figure out another more labor intensive way to get them onboard. And let me guess they took your Scamp away also because you have overhead cranes in your hanger so you don't need to have your crane. (Scamp is a small 5K driveable crane with leveling legs on it, used in Aviation to pull the rotors and hubs off of the aircraft in the field) because IF I remember correctly the Scamp has an extenable boom that is long enough to reach to the deck from a decent distance away from the hull and while it would be a slow ride to get it there (25MPH I think was the max speed) it would be well worth it and FUN getting it there.
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Be care with a forklift - weight is a big factor. If the weight of the torpedo exceeds the weight lifting capability of the forklift it may tip over. A crane is much safer. I'd really like to see pictures of the boat's location and where your torpedo will be located from where it will be hoisted for loading.
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Ask John and you shall recieve, these were pulled off of webshots and taken by Jim Flanders. I have no idea how old they are but the boat looks good in these pics ;)
http://news.webshots.com/album/50650203OooSQP
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Thanks - task looks easier now. I send you some thoughts.
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You guessed it. The Scamp was taken too. For those that don't know, we're talking about very large industrial type all terrain forklifts, not just the run of the mill commercial ones. A scamp is a light duty mobile crane that can lift the front of a 5 ton truck (I have pictures of that from Iraq when some idiot backed the 5 ton into a 3' deep gutter and got it stuck) and I would guess that lifting forward of the forward rear axle is, at the very least, 5,000 lbs. (granted the boom wasn't extended). Our problem is that the surrounding ground all around the boat is nowhere even close to level and is very soft river silt (part of the reason the boat's settled in the way she has). Most places present about a 15 degree angle down to the boat. It also collects water like a fish bowl so getting right up next to the boat with any kind of heavy machinery is just asking for trouble. The angle combined with the moist silt might present a problem.
Rick...or anyone else for that matter, how was the first torpedo loaded?
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Drive the forklift onto some planks or thick plywood to spread out the footprint of the wheels. The angle of the ground still would not be much trouble as you left the torpedo as long as you can stabilize the lifting platform (forklift).
If you can get the torpedo flat on deck, you can rig a davit or .a-frame to lift the aft end of the torpedo into the loading angle. You will be OK.
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maybe we should ask them:
http://www.cavallabase.org/AftTorpedoLoad.htm (http://www.cavallabase.org/AftTorpedoLoad.htm)
Food for thought.
Mark
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Tap all sources for ideas and help.
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OK folks,
I have been biting my tounge here lately on this one because this whole evolution is DANGEROUS regardless of whom you ask and how they recommend that you do this one. JT and I have both talked off line about loading weapons and without the use of a crane you are limited to what you can do and how to do it....
Almost all of the loading you have seen has been done by crane with the exception of the Mk 45 Load out from Torsk... and that one was not fun by those whom did it (depends on who you talk to though ;)) You all are in a completely different area then ALL of the other boats, of the boats that are on dry land you are the only ones in a sand bowl and Correy can tell you how fast sand gives out under pressure. With Cavalla she is setting in the dirt but her dirt until recently was firm and level around her so it was a no brainer to get a crane and bring the weapons on the way that they used to do.
With you all you have are a number of problems that have to be tackled,
one of which is getting the weapons down to the boat without dropping them and then placing them on blocks so you can bring them onboard somehow.
Two how are you going to bring them onboard safely and hopefully in one piece??
Three.. what is your best option??? Only you as a CREW can make that call
With your Mk 27, personally I would disassemble it and send it out for paint and then bring it onboard on a refrigerator truck(dolly)in pieces still and then bring it onboard (going right down your after gangplank) and put it into the ATR in pieces and reassemble it on the deck if that is where it is going to stay.
Your Mk 14, that one has bothered me for a while know..... JT you are right and have them GUT it completely out (to lighten it up) and then send it out for paint and either bring it onboard in pieces (the safest way) or put it together after it has been painted and then get your A frame or a substitute in it's place to bring the weapon on the way that it is suposed to be brought onboard. Making sure that you use 2'X12" planks for the forklift to ride on down to the boat so it doesn't sink or drop the weapon.
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OK folks let's revisit this block once more for the Cavalla crew and to you also whom are wanting to load your tubes or back haul them ;)
Please remember that I was a TM3(SS) on 718,717,711,692 so for me these tubes are different then what I learned on and am having to relearn.... SO with that being said I have a couple of TM's whom have been more then happy offline to tell me that while I am correct in what I am telling you that I have missed a step or two or I.. didn't let you all know that there are things that the book doesn't talk about..
First things first, we NEED to readdress the rollers and how they work.. While I knew that IF they were up too high that they would bind up I did NOT realize that IF they were too low that they would do the same thing.. duh right... forgive me because on a 688 we didn't have tube rollers we had teflon guides in the tubes and we adjusted to the depth using the rollers on the weapons loading tray's. My advice for this is 1.) check the height of the rollers in the tubes as to what weapons you are trying to load regardless if it is back hauling them or just tube loading them... IF the height is right please carefully remove the rollers and DO NOT lose anything and check the amount of shims so they can go back together correctly..
IF they are too high remove a shim or two and recheck until the proper height has been obtained. Paul I mentioned to you that you can take the guide lug's loose to accomidate the problems but I did not know at the time that the weapons would bind up if there was too much room in the tubes, NEVER thought of that one..
Remember folks that the Stop bolt, Depth setting mechanism and the Gyro setting mechanisms have to be pulled back to ensure that there will be no damage to the tubes or the weapons. PLEASE review the tubes part of the manual to tell you how to reset these pieces of equipment