SUBMARINEMUSEUMS.ORG Forum
General Boards => Museum Submarine Discussion => Topic started by: Mark Sarsfield on January 06, 2009, 11:56:26 AM
-
Has any boat tried getting their ovens/ranges to work? If so, what voltage did you apply to them? 240/250 VDC or 345 VDC? My calculations are assuming that the heating elements are 80 Ohms each.
-
Is any of this data included in the Fleet sub Manual online? Look in the companion book "Submarine Electrical Systems" ???
I'd have to find the creep who made steaks aboard COD as a reservist in 1971 and never cleaned the greasy foil out of the oven to see what he says!
:knuppel2:
Good luck!
-
We found all of the data in the manual. It says that the oven elements run at a max of 1500 watts with 345 volts applied. That's how I came up with 80 ohms for each element. Max oven temp. is 550 deg. F. Correy was thinking of just running strictly 250 VDC on the boat, which would run the ovens and ranges at only 70% power. There aren't too many things that cook at 385 deg. F, though. He wants to keep it simple, which is understandable.
We're going to check the resistance of each heating element and make sure all switches are okay as well as the wiring from the fuse panel in the crew's mess to the switch panel near the ranges.
One idea that I had was to maybe bring onboard 29 12VDC deep cycle batteries (like an uninterrupted power supply) and run the ranges off of those with an AC trickle charger attached to each battery to keep them charging. If I remember correctly the emergency lighting has two 120VDC bulbs in series on each leg. So, only 20 of the same batteries would be needed to run some of the emergency lights to produce the required 240 VDC.
They are toying with the idea of hooking up shore power to the boat's original shore power connection, but I am having a hard time finding any mention of it in the manuals. Plus, a lot of the large cables that ran through the engine rooms are missing from copper thieves. If I remember right, the power was taken from the main throw switch in the CR and sent back to maneuvering where it was then distributed and regulated to different parts of the boat. With a lot of our heavy cables hacked out, that will be a lot of work, plus having to verify all of the voltage regulators, invertors, generators, etc. through-out the boat.
-
Guys,
first things first, start one project and complete it and then move on to the next one... While I know that it doesn't take a full crew to load weapons or replace a deck it does take a concentrated effort to make these jobs happen and while you can plan for the next job until time ends ya need to finish one and then move on..
Reason that I say this is because we started the grill/oven restoration a few years ago on Torsk and even pulled the heating elements out of a surface vessel during a strip ship to replace our worn out/inop ones and to this day they have not been installed and are somewhere in dry storage waiting the day to work once more, and in that time there have been numerous projects put infront of them and other project where we pulled parts from ships and no longer remember where they go or why we removed them so now those parts are looking at going into the dump.
One of the biggest reasons that I keep coming back to this BBS is because there are crews who want to make their boats live again and the crew that I work with have been there and done that more then a few times and I am trying to help you all and keep you from making the same mistakes that we did.. And yes we have lost a few vol's over the years that were interested in special projects because we didn't get the parts or the power in "their timeframe" or to health reasons.
Regardless of what boat it is the crew needs to go to the Navy yard in DC and get THEIR boats schematics printed out, both the hull and all that the Navy has on record.. This will save you so many headaches that it isn't even remotely funny, we were able to get most of ours and have them in archives for reference and that has saved our butts more then a few times when it has come to trying to figure something out with wiring or the actual layout during the last shipyard period.
Chief Mike is the person to talk to about the wiring for the shore power and for your ovens/stoves, I will call him here shortly and see if he can get online and answer your questions because I am not qualified to answer the questions that you have.. While I am qualified submarines and qualified to teach electronics/electrical repair on the AH-64A, AH-64D Apache helicopters, I am not willing to give much guidance on what you need to do in fixing your boats electrical systems other then please check your wiring prior to powering anything up and then hope and pray that everything works in your gear that you have also tested as much as possible prior to powering it up.
-
First of all, is Batfish still owned by the Navy? The Navy inspects Torsk every year and one of the things they check is to make certain there is no power applied to the galley ranges. The ranges were always a fire hazard and required A LOT of attention to make sure they were kept clean and that no grounds developed.
The ranges are a resistive load, so they can actually run on AC or DC. To run on AC, you'd have to isolate them from the DC switchboards, but that requires removing fuses and running some new cable to the load side of the fuses.
Before you do anything, you had better meggar all the DC busses. The power cables developed grounds in well maintained boats. Figure the odds that in a boat as old as Batfish no grounds have developed. If you power up, you will have to meggar the busses regularly, at least once a year. It doesn't take long for grounds to cause fires or shock hazards. It is best to keep a record so that you can look for trends.
On Torsk, the DC shore power came into the Forward Aux DC Switchboard located in the Control Room. Can't speak for the Batfish. The wisest course of action, is to draw up your electrical distribution system before you try to bring on power. Try to locate some qual drawings or use the hand over hand method to figure the system out. You will absolutely need a system drawing for many reasons, so make one. If all else fails, start with the one in the fleet submarine and modify it to reflect the actual Batfish system. It will be incredibly dangerous to power up the system before you know what it consists of. Also dangerous if the system isn't meggared. Make sure all the fuses in the panels are removed before powering up. This project will not be completed soon if it is done right. Believe me, DC systems with DC motors are a maintenance nightmare. We had a large "E" Div on the boat and everyone in the Division worked constantly to keep things safe and running. Don't think you are going to do it with one or two people. It is doable, but I want you to be aware that you have a lot of work ahead of you. If someone has cut out pieces of the bus cabling, the job will be even bigger.
So, for starters,
1.) Document the system. Make some good drawings that show the system layout including all the power panels and junction panels.
2.) Open each power/fuse panel and circuit breaker and controller, thoroughly inspect it looking for damaged wiring, insulation, hardware, etc.
3.) Thoroughly clean each power/fuse panel and circuit breaker and controller, cleaning out any rust and dirt. Clean fuse contacts, starter contacts, and tighten loose hardware.
4.) Pull the fuses for all motors. Before you power up any motors, the windings will have to be checked for grounds, the commutators will have to be cleaned, and the brushes will have to be checked. DC motors use carbon brushes which wear out and the dust causes grounds.
5.) Meggar all DC busses and any DC loads you intend to power up. Keep a record of these readings. If any busses or loads show low resistance, go back and clean and inspect until the source of the ground is found, removed, or repaired.
If this sounds like a lot of work, it's only because it is. Get yourself a copy or Electrician's Mate 3&2 and 1&C and read them. They will give pointers on electrical system maintenance.
Please take this project slowly.
By the way, the DC Emergency Lighting System (the green, pressure-proof light fixtures) is a completely separate system from the DC power system. It is easier to get on line than the DC power. There is a disconnect in the Forward Battery Well and one in the After Battery well that conencts DC power at 250 VDC to the port and stbd emergency DC lighting busses. You can connect your battery at these disconnects and power the lights. Actually, there is a port and stbd emergency light junction box in after battery. If you remove the covers from those boxes, you can run a jumper from the port bus to the stbd bus, and power all the emergency lights from a battery in either forward battery or after battery. This would be a good place to start your power up project. It is a small system (relatively speaking). You still need to meggar the busses, check all the light bulbs, but it won't take a long time. Attached is a simplified drawing of the Torsk's Emergency Lighting system with the non-historic jumpers, batteries, DC rectifier, and lighting contactor.
Hope this helps. It would take pages and pages to describe things in more detail. If you ever get the chance to come to Baltimore, we can show you some of the things we've done to restore power. I can tell you that it tooks us years to accomplish the things we've donw and we still have a long way to go.
-
I was going to say something earlier about the Navy inspections and the ovens. I thought it was a big no-no to have a working oven in a submarine museum boat! I read that somewhere...
-
Must be a big no-no to have the ovens powered up, because they check the ones on Torsk every time they visit. Of course, they are officers, the only way they know to check is by turning the local control to ON. Now a smart submariner would simply pull the fuses when the inspection is due????? ::)
-
The Navy has a lot less control over Batfish than all of the other museum boats. ::) With that said, I agree 110% that EVERYTHING has to be kosher before adding any power to it. My opinion of the ovens/ranges is to rewire them 100% with cables that won't ground out on every whim. One advantage that we do have on Batfish is that it is not afloat. So, the wires are not chafing and vibrating due to the boat rocking and twisting. However, who knows how much they have chafed since it sat as a dockside trainer and in mothballs and how much they have rotted sitting dormant for decades. Again, I think total replacement is the key to safety.
I'm completely on board with electrical safety and I know that any electrical project will take a very long time.
-
MarkS,
I will talk to you off line on this one. This is hitting a lot of issues that I can set clear for you. Correy and I have talked about this as well. He will be able to fill you in on this a little.
Rick
-
Hey Mark, here's where I read about the whole "working galley" thing.
http://messdeck.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10485
-
Roger that, Rick. You've probably seen a lot of email traffic on the issue, too.
Lance, based on the conversation in that thread that you linked to, it sounds like there isn't much of a standard of how to maintain a fleet sub. It probably comes down to the local command that performs the inspections each year. Some are very strict and others are just happy that they didn't fall through our deck this time. ;D
-
Oven info for USS Batfish:
Mfg.: Edison Hotpoint
Mfg. Location: Chicago, IL
Model Name: Navy Type Electric Pantry (not sure why it's called a pantry, but the name plate was very hard to read, too)
Model Number: 102R180
S/N: 442552?
Mfg. Year: 1942
Voltage: 250 VDC
Wattage: 7 kW (7000 watts) - we’re guessing that this is the max wattage for all knobs set to max temperatures.
There are 16 control knobs/switches and each switch it's own 25-amp fuse. If anyone has a copy of a manul for this device, we would very much appreciate it. Thanks!
-
Here's dumb: ;D
Originally, a pantry was understood to be a cool and dark place where perishable foods such as freshly baked bread could be stored. In fact, the word pantry is thought to be derived from the French word “pan” which means bread. Over time, the concept of the pantry was expanded from a simple bread room into an area where essentials could be stored in bulk.
-
Agreed. I'm not sure why they called an oven a pantry, though. Must have been a miscommunication between the Navy and the contractor.
-
Doesn't the Pampanito have her Galley operational and serving food monthly??? I remember seeing that on one of the bbs' that they we using theirs during fund raisers or something along that lines.
-
Not only are their ranges/ovens operational, Rick Dennis informed us yesterday that Pampanito now is licensed as an operational surface craft. She can motor around anywhere she likes.
-
WHAT THE FLIP OVER?????? While I have no problem with Pamp being able to go to sea (she has NO screw's btw) :2funny: I really have to wonder how wise that action is ???
-
Maybe she had new screws fabricated/installed? Before I took that thing out I'd make sure that the vents could never open nor leak PERIOD. Second, I would probably weld the open vent screens closed on the bottom. I don't know what flaming hoops that they had to jump through to get it "seaworthy" and certified, but I'm sure that the Navy and Coast Guard had a huge checklist before they got their piece of paper.
With that being the case, there' hope for other floating museums to do the same that have access to a large body of water. Being on a river is not as conducive.
-
Don't forget that not too long ago the Pampanito stared in a movie. It was out in SF bay at the time for filming. I never knew if it was under it's own power. :P
-
When they filmed Down Periscope in 1996, it was towed around for the film. Now it can motor around on its own.
-
Something sounds really wrong about all of this...
-
Well the powers that be don't seem to think so. Otherwise, they never would have gotten the approval. The fact that it will never (purposefully) dive, again, played a big part in that decision. I think it's nice that one of the museum boats is able to get around again. A lot of vehicles from that era or permanently dormant, including land vehicles.
-
I would be amazed in Pampanito could "motor around on her own". First of all, as Darrin said, she has no screws! Second of all, if she is still Navy property, she is not allowed to unlock her shafts. Then there is the issue of cooling the main motors. Last time I talked with Rich, the sea chests were all welded over. That would make it tough to cool the main motors. The motors may be cooled with fresh water, but the fresh water still has to be cooled.
-
That's what I was getting at. It would seem to be flat out against all rules for the Pampanito to be "operational". But now I don't know what it takes to be licensed as an "operational surface craft". Do you know, Mark S.? I'm curious about this.
-
IF she was towed that would be different completely then turning her screws which she doesn't have nor does she have her batteries and that is where the power from the motors normally ran and then sent to the cube's for generation to the screws. She has(d) a tow mount attached under the waterline on her chin for the at sea sequence for the movie, with that a cable was run to that and to a tug a distance away to make it appear that she was underway on her own power..
I wonder how much they are planning on charging to take her out per person??? depending on the cost I don't see this venture happening very long ;)
-
I will jump in her. First this is information that was passed on to me from a volunteer that worked at the Pamp. I do not know any more. I also have a fairly recent photo of her puttering around the bay. This sounds like an issue to ask the Pamp for the how to's and why for's.
Rick
-
Too bad they never visit our website. :(
-
Too bad they never visit our website. :(
I've tried my damnedest, maybe someone else would have better luck in asking.