SUBMARINEMUSEUMS.ORG Forum
General Boards => Submarine Related Chatter => School of the Boat => Topic started by: Darrin on March 05, 2013, 09:15:32 AM
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I was hoping that one of our resident Electricians cough Chief Mike cough would have done this block once more because he is very qualified in this area and I am just a TM so this ought to be fun :2funny:
First things first: How does a submarine generate DC power? and how is it transfered around the submarine?
Good luck, and yes use the Fleet Submarine Manual as we have done in the past and if you have lost the link or never seen the link it is www.hnsa.org
Darrin
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The main and auxiliary engines produce DC power. The main engines can produce 1 million watts per hour and the auxiliary engine can produce 300,000 watts per hour. The purpose of the auxiliary engine is that it has a "self-exciting" generator. In other words, it doesn't require an external electrical source to provide it with power in order for it to produce its own power. The large generators, on the other hand, do require an external power source in order to produce power. If the batteries were to ever die or become damaged, the auxiliary engine would have to be fired up to produce electricity for the main generators.
The generators on all of the engines are DC generators and they send all of their power to the control cubicle in the Maneuvering room. From the Maneuvering room, the EM's/ET's can route power to the rest of the boat and to the drive motors for the propellers. Items that require AC power get their power through the I.C. Switch board in the control room, which in turn gets its AC power from AC generators driven by DC motors - usually located in the pump room.
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Very Good Mark,
However take a boat like the TORSK who's "Dinky" Auxiliary diesel engine was removed during her service life along with other things when they made modifications to the boat... SO with that being said how did she start her engines when they lost shore power and when the batteries were dead or removed? because this is where you may have to go back to the basics of Diesel Engines and how they work especially under "reduced power" situations.
The Torsk was Decommed in 1968 and was used as a trainer in DC until '70 and she had already lost her batteries by then, so how did the Reserve Crews get her engines running once more with no power onboard? and yes if the engines had not been run in a LONG time it did take some DC voltage to make them run once more, and what was the DC voltage used for? and to make this easy the Air Banks were fully charged prior to loosing power.
Did I read it correctly that the Batfish's DC cables are CUT between the Forward and AFT parts of the ship??? no offense but please be VERY dammned careful when working on these systems not only can you hurt or kill someone when powering it up you can burn her to the ground
Jim, If you are the aviation person that I believe you are you may remember the B-29 Kee Bird and how she ended up while trying to be restored....
Darrin
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Darrin,
I believe that the diesels on the boats use air starters. Did that vintage use glow plugs, too? I'm leaning toward "no", because of the opposing pistons setup.
Yes, in one of our engine rooms the thick, heavy power cables that run length-wise through the boat are all missing sections as long as the engine room itself - I don't remember if it's the FER or AER. Also, most of the big switches and relays inside of the control cubicle are all removed. The vets that brought her to OK removed that stuff to help pay the bills, because when the Navy sold the boat to the vets, it was still in operational condition, for the most part. So, assuming that there was still power cables running from the AER to the Maneuvering Room, the Maneuvering Room cubicle would have no way of sending the power to any other part of the boat. Our control cubicle now looks like one big, open bird cage. Sad.
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Darrin, I remember exactly. I know some old hands who made a trip or two in the earlier expeditions before there was a "race" to see who could bring her back. The APU in the tail caught fire and burned the plane to the ground. They were trying to run it out of a standard gas can with an extended hose. What a waste. The book about the expedition is pretty good though.
Mark, its just wire and switches. Let's make a quick trip to Home Depot. :2funny:
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Jim, I was hoping that you knew about the Kee Bird and her makeshift fuel tank/APU that came loose while the crew was hot dogging it while taxi-ing it for the first time in years and yes there is a video of it to include watching her burn to the ground :knuppel2: And there is mixed reasons as to why the Crew Chief had internal bleeding that ultimately caused his death.. One reason was to believe that during a hard landing in the Caribou (barely flight worthy) that the internal load shifted and part of it fell on him and the second opinion is that he worked himself to death in the freezing cold trying to make her fly once more. Either situation is still a tragedy not to mention the loss of the Kee Bird
The only bright points of that lesson is that slower is FASTER and while the crew of the Torsk won't believe me saying this... had the situation been planned out better i.e. had they removed the wings from the fuselage and then transported the whole air frame to the open hanger that was OFFERED to them, the Kee Bird would be flying on it's own once more.. And sadly with the loss of the Kee Bird another B-29 is going to be able to put back into flying order once more..
Mark, the 38 1/8D F/M didn't have glow plugs and yes they were air started and the only real electrical power that was needed would have been for the starting circuit and for the LO pumps assuming the engines hadn't been run in a LONG time and the bearings were bone dry (although not recommended they could start briefly without the LO pumps running)
Ok BATFISH crew, what are you trying to bring back to life once more that requires DC power because a LOT of information is posted online about what the pieces of equipment do and the power requirements for them... if'n ya know where to look that is
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The only things that comes to my mind that needs a large DC power source are the grills/ovens... as far as what we want to get operating, again. Was it you guys that converted your galley to AC power?
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Pamp has had her Galley up and running on special occasions in the past and I don't know what all they truly did to bring theirs back to life..
Did you also mention that the Volunteers own the "title" to the Batfish because if that was truly the case the Navy would have nothing to do with her at all other than to say that yes she was a commissioned warship in the Navy from 194?-19?? and there are only 3 former US Navy warships that hold that distinction here in the US and one is the USS Slater, USS Razorback and the LST-325.
The idea was brought up on the Torsk a number of years ago about bringing the Galley back to life and has not been brought up in a long time, than again I have not been on the boat in almost 2 years
Darrin
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I've heard both stories on the Batfish: 1) that the vets bought her and the OK Maritime Commission is the sole owner and, contradistinctively, 2) the Navy still owns her and can take her back at any time. #2 is what Rick told me a few weeks ago.
Okay. It was probably Pamp or even Cod or Cobia that have their galleys running and, most likely, on AC power. I think maybe Silversides does, too, but I want to say that they have an industrial DC rectifier supplying power to a lot of DC circuits.
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I'll interject some aircraft Lore. The Navy NEVER relinquishes title. The boats that were sold out of the navy are probably the ONLY things that could be privately held. They recovered a Hellcat off the botom of Lake Michigan and it became a court battle. The guy says "I found it" and the Navy says "still ours, we knew it was somewhere down there". This has happened on MANY occasions with aircraft and I don't see the navy, whose life is boats, changing for that.
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Mark,
Contact Tim Rizzuto on the USS Slater because they use their stoves, ovens every month and I believe they are on DC power and they have had to bring her back to life from a WWII DE to a Greek DE back and then back to her US Navy WWII standards... You would be amazed at their online publication "slater signals" as to how far she has come in the last 10 years.
The other one to contact is Rich Pekelney on the Pamp, I used to know a few volunteers whom posted on multiple submarine bbs' over the years and sadly they have passed way too early
The only other one that I can think of off the top of my head that does use hers from time to time is the USS LST-325 when they have work parties onboard and when they got to SEA, yes she still sails a couple of times a year and yes she was also brought back from Greece and is now a show boat that looks like she did in the 40's and a few years ago Hollywood tried to hire her to sail to be in a couple of movies "flags of our fathers" and "letters from Iwo" And currently she is AT SEA after going through a shipyard period and is sailing back home on her OWN power.
http://lstmemorial.org/
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Jim,
When a Navy vessel is "stricken" from the Navy's list especially when they are sold/given to a foriegn country the Navy no longer has much to say about them (i.e USS Trout, sold to Iran and then kept when a small little war started and then finally scrapped her a few years ago in Texas, even though she was fully sea worthy and museum quality).. With aircraft there is different because they are small and from time to time they have been known to do the "we want that back now" due to it being one or two of the last known kind in existance..
The Army Air Corps/ Air Farce, has been known to write off aircraft that have crashed and no longer want anything to do with them... HOWEVER they did wind up taking back the "Memphis Belle" from Memphis due to the lack of maintenance/restoration and then moved her to Wright Patterson AFB in Dayton, Oh to be fully restored and put on display once more in a "proper" museum setting and not just underneath a big tent
Darrin
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Thanks, Darrin. Rich and I chat on occasion in emails. He doesn't get to post much on here.
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Rich is a great guy and a wealth of info. I have a 500 gig drive in my possesion from Rich that has all of Pamp's drawings on it. I am helping him to identify them and label them for faster searches (I am hoping this pays off for Bat stuff I am searching for). ;D
Funny that you should mention the Belle. Did some work on the "movie Belle" back in the day. The real Belle was never really stricken but LOANED to the city of Memphis for display. NEXT TO WATER. IN AN OPEN TENT. BIRDS...!!! As a historical landmark it really did need some attention. It was/is a political thing with certain generals as well.
Go here for lots of squak on birds. http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/ Or WIX for short. I frequented there a lot before Gary passed. After that, it wasn't the same working on the old birds.
I hope that this site can become similar to that. We would be SIX. :2funny:
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Mark,
Contact Tim Rizzuto on the USS Slater because they use their stoves, ovens every month and I believe they are on DC power and they have had to bring her back to life from a WWII DE to a Greek DE back and then back to her US Navy WWII standards... You would be amazed at their online publication "slater signals" as to how far she has come in the last 10 years.
Far from Every Month!! ;) - Every Satuday & Monday which are the two Big Volunteer Days (Exepct for this winter due the forward expansion joint being replaced) they are used for Chow which is just 2 or $3 on Average! And I could easily be wrong but I think they are AC since when they tired to run the 24" Carbon Arc Searchlight in Nov 2012 it was a joint effort with the engineers using the 8 Cyl Ships Service Generator to create the DC power for the Searchlight so based that is why I think they are AC power. ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1anYB4cLl3I Video Of the 8 Cyl Generator Running for those intrested by the way.
& This video I put together sums up the progress that we have done since she has returned from Greece with before & affter views of most of the major compartments onboard - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hHgCbRh588
P.S Sorry about Derailing this thread with Slater Stuff! :P
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Very nice video's Thomas, I have been following the Slater since she arrived in Albany and have been truly impressed with the work that has been done on her, pull up a chair shipmate and if you can find my fellow wayward Torpedoman John T you maybe able to brib him out of his good Gilly..
Darrin
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Years ago when Torsk held thier work weekend BMM (Baltimore Maritime Museum) used to allow them to sleep onboard the USCG Taney and use her Galley, as time passed the Torsk wound up only being able to use the Torsk and the lightship CHESAPEAK who's galley also works... I don't have any contacts with BMM anymore and Chief Mike knows more about their galleys they I am sure they do :2funny: So again if the Chief Electrician from the Torsk would show back up he maybe able to answer your questions
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Thanks for all of the info, guys.
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All I know about the galleys on Torsk and Chesapeake is:
!.) The Navy frowns on using the galley ranges or fryer on the museum subs. For those of you who served time on the boats, you know what a huge fire hazard they were. They required frequent cleaning and degreasing. One of the items on the NAVSEA inspection list is the galleys. They must check them to be sure they are not energized in any way. The other problem is ventilation. You really need to run the exhaust fans to eliminate the odors and smoke from cooking. This introduces another huge fire hazard. The grease collects in the ventilation pipes and can ignite causing a burning, smoking disaster We had a ventilation duct fire on my boat. It wasn't pretty. The Navy made all the boats clean out the piping.
As for Chesapeake, we had acquired replacement parts for the range from an old ship in the James River. Dave and Frank from our crew worked for several Saturdays rewiring and installing the parts in the galley range over on Chesapeake so we could prepare meals for our annual work weekend. The museum stopped letting us use the facilities (that worked) aboard Taney (our effort were not as important as the income from the overnights). Restoring those galley ranges was a lot of work, but it paid off.
Understand that Dave was an Electrician on the boats and he used to do this when he was on the boats. Most towns have an appliance parts store that specializes in carrying parts for older ranges. You might check with them for parts such as thermostats, heating elements, etc. However, before you attempt repair and actually running these ranges, take them out and steam clean the parts, thoroughly inspect and meggar the wiring.
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They definitely need to be cleaned between the rust and corrosion. We could limit our cooks to not frying anything and mainly using the cook tops as burners for soup or anything in a pot that can be covered. I agree that frying food on a museum boat would be dangerous and stinky. Especially, when the blower is running all the time.
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Hey Chief,
That was one heck of a strip ship as I recall when we pulled the parts for the stoves on Chesapeak along with a fully intact Aux Gyro that is now in LLFB.. And as I recall we wound up leaving some tools on the Ex Sunbird due to the lights we had dying and having to hand over hand our way out of the ship from After Steering.
Whatever happened with the MacKay Radio set that we pulled off of the Range Sentenial? That was supposed to go to the lightship as I recall and COB Bill was working on it a few years ago...
Mark, why don't you just go and buy large hot plates and cook in the galley? they are very cheap and can be put away out of the public eye when not in use and no need to rewire the stoves and ovens... Just wondering
Darrin
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Actually, Darrin has a point. Aboard Torsk we use an electric, store-bought skillet, and electric, store-bought slow cookers to cook and keep food warm. We also have a microwave in the Aft Battery Well. When we need to boil a lot of water, like for spaghetti, we use one of those gas powered turkey fryers up topside.
I remember that strip ship quite well. The MaKay is still over on Chesapeake, I think. We were not allowed to actually install it. You know who denied it because the ship was a Park Service-owned vessel and supposedly he needed permission from them first.
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Finally after knowing Chief Eacho for almost 9 years I got a "Darrin has a point".. :2funny: I am sure there have been a few over the years and normally the good jobs come after I have been sweating my butt off working for him doin the heavy lifting and dirty work...
Damn shame about that MacKay Radio set, it was the right make and I believe it may have been the right model for the Chesapeak and no I am not surprised about it not being installed at all thinking back through all of the struggles that we have had with that wonderfull person and the people he works for/with.
It was nice when the crew would pull the hot plates out and cook bacon and eggs in the galley, you could smell it all over the boats :smitten: that and a few volunteers over the years have brought chili and meatball subs and other fun and interesting dishes
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Guys,
Since Aug. 2008 we have been using electric roasters, griddles, coffee pots, etc. at all of our boat functions. We also use the stove in the museum, as needed/available. The people that do all of the cooking at our events have asked us for years to 1) get running water into the galley and scullery, again, and 2) eventually getting the cooking appliances working.
As it stands right now, the boat needs probably 3 more 100A amp services added to her for various uses, including cooking. Sometimes we pop the breaker and kill the lights in the middle of tours, because we have too many appliances running on very few receptacles. Also, our cooks bring a LOT of stuff with them to the events and I think their thought process is that it would be nice not to have to lug all of these modern appliances in and out of the boat, in addition to cookware, food, etc. Setting up and tearing down from a living history event weekend is a lot of work.
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Where are the amps going? A normal house with all the appliances is usually 150-200 amps. Are we losing that much in DC conversion?
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Nothing that runs on DC is operational on the boat, except for the call bell system, which we only activate during event weekends. We have one 100A service dedicated to the A/C units (and the Legion Room). The other 100A service is dedicated to the boat lights and receptacles. Based on the number of operational conventional lights in each compartment, the power consumption is quite enormous. Tax that same service with several heating appliances and pop goes the breaker.
I think Wade (the ham guru) has a basic power consumption write-up showing why we need more services added. It's been an on-again/off-again topic of his, mine, and Rick's. First step is for Rick to contact the power company and find out what the max amperage of the current service coming onto the property, including going to the museum building.
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Well Mark it sounds like you do have a power problem onboard and I can understand your volunteers wanting to cook and what not onboard during their stay onboard.
I am not a submarine electrician, I was a attack helicopter electrician by trade and from what little I know about the Batfish it does as Jim noted make me wonder where all of the power is going..
Now as all of you remember during the School of the Boat we did discuss how and for the most part where power is brought in and where it goes to for distrobution and IF I remember correctly from what Mark has said that their Cubicle has been gutted out and a LOT of the wiring has been cut from the switch gear. That alone may now provide to be a hazard if the wiring has shifted over the years and at least on Torsk I have seen some wiring that had barely been electrical taped in some spots to keep them from arcing and sparking..
That also lends itself for the next question.. How many of your fuse panels are currently energized and do you know where all of the power is going from those panels? and I can only a/ss/u/me that those circuits were all tested and verified before someone put a fuse back into them hoping that they didn't burn the boat down.
For those that don't remember we went over that it was I believe in AC Power a couple of years ago, that may help some I hope
Darrin
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Darrin,
We only have lighting fuse panels energized on the boat and, in a few cases, hardly even that. The outside lighting fuse panel in the CT above the CR ladder only has one or two switches operational for CT lighting. Someone rigged the box to only operate those two switches. None of the outside lights (and we only have the port and starboard light sockets left) are capable of being energized at this time.
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Mark,
I thought you or someone from the Batfish had told me that a few years ago and I wanted to make sure that I wasn't mistaken because I have worked with a couple of museums since we started this thread to include working on Trains.. And after going through some of the previous posts regarding shipping you were talking to Chris about transporting the 5" gun and not me and I have not seen his name on the Torsk BBS or on here in a while.
Darrin
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Roger that. Yeah, I guess it was Chris. I thought he mentioned something a few years ago that he might not be trucking much longer. A personal message will still get to his email address, if he hasn't changed email (like some of my relatives do every 6 months).
EDIT: What is Chris's handle on here?
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Mark,
It took me a minute and made my head hurt finding him, he used to go by AVGWARHAWK
Haven't seen or heard from him in a while now and I don't have a phone number for him anymore either, maybe Chief Mike does and he goes by emeacho here and on the Torsk BBS
Darrin
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Mark,
Give me a call when you get a chance
Darrin
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That's right. Where was he based out of? Did he used to be a Torsk volunteer?
EDIT: I will try to call tonight.
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he was a Torsk volunteer and I don't remember where he lived at anymore.. I have lost contact with a lot of people over the years to include the crew of the Torsk (not their fault, that one is ALL mine) Does Corey still Volunteer onboard Batfish?
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Yes. Correy is still our BLHA Skipper and he is also a park manager at nearby Ft. Gibson - early 18th century fort. He doesn't get on here too often, because OHS has him running crazy all over the state.
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he is a good guy and really wanted to get involved when you all loaded weapons a few years ago to include wanting to help tear the weapon down to get it onboard if needed.. He maybe able to help you out with getting some of the stuff you need for digging the stern planes out and getting some of the ballast stone and other things. We used our resources at Ft Eustis to the max and it only took knowing the right people to ask and it maybe helpfull to ask Correy if he and his group can help you with some of the work that is about to take place oboard and around the boat.
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I'm part of Correy's reenacting group (I'm the engineering officer). Jim actually has access to heavy machinery. So, that isn't an issue. I found a stone company not too far from the Batfish. I'll get Rick the info to see if they'll make him a deal-deal. Maybe the guy's a Republican. Business is business. Right? ;)
Btw, I wasn't able to call you last night. So, I'll call you on Wednesday night, if that works for you.
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While doing some minor research regarding refloating the USS Stewart, I stumbled across a website that I have not been to in years and it has a treasure trove of information regarding bringing a WWII submarine back to life with new power after Hurricane Ike (and a few volunteers and ahem the Naval Reserves over the years)
For the Batfish crew enjoy this piece because it is still online and a few of those that did the work post from time to time on www.submarinesailor.com and on Rontini's BBS also
http://www.deepdomain.net/phpBB_cav/viewtopic.php?t=410
Darrin
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I haven't been to either of those sites in years. Thanks for reminding me.
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I haven't tried operating them on DC power yet but the new LED light bulbs seem to work OK, draws less power, runs cooler and has no filament to break. Right now they are way too expensive ($13.00 each) to use in large numbers unless they are drastically reduced in price or donated. I currently use two of them in a ceiling fan and so far so good.
I haven't posted on the forum for a long time but I have an idea that could be used to cool the FM engines on all of the subs that are either in the water or on land. The idea involves using radiators from big trucks , existing piping in the sub, and an electrically powered fan pulling air through the radiators. This idea would only be feasible if there is enough room under the wood deck of the sub, cost of materials, and permission of the Navy.
73's ((Best Regards) to all
KF4QIC
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1- The status of Pampanito's galley is at:
http://www.maritime.org/pres/potrack/index.htm
We occasionally operate most of the equipment in the galley. For each piece of equipment we clean and inspect. We then check it with a Megger (a megohm meter that measures the quality insulation.)
For the oven hotplates we found that the connections on the back of the hotplates were full of grease, then the porcelain insulators on a couple of the connections were cracked. We covered them with high temperature tape. After we started them, we found that the thermostat on one oven just needed cleaning and re-assembly. We replaced its knob with one we got from Susuin Bay Reserve fleet. The other thermostat was rebuilt. FYI, we used Carbon Off to clean the heavy black off. This is a lot like paint stripper and requires all the same safety treatment, but it works. The grease traps were cleaned.
Pampanito's original hot water heater was missing when we got the boat. We found a replacement on USS Sailfish. It was the same size and brand. Unfortunately it had bad heating elements that we had to get custom built replacements. The DC controller had been cannibalized and a modern contactor installed in it. So we use a non-historic 110 VAC control circuit to control a relay that turns the 250 VDC heating circuit. We chose old style (1950s) controllers that are very close in style to the original.
The A120 mixer is a 120 VAC model from Susuin. We have serviced it and have run it from 120 VAC a couple of times but do not use it regularly.
The ice cream freezer runs off of 250 VDC and has been fully restored. We have made ice cream for two vet reunions.
The Navy is mostly concerned with health and safety. We basically operate the equipment infrequently and not for commercial purposes.
The main ventilation blowers work. One of them had a controller problem last time we used it and needs some repair.
2- Pampanito's power was restored to original 250 VDC, 120 VDC, 120 VAC and 12 VAC ca. 1996. It was a big project lead by Len Vaden.
We have a 100 amp 480 VAC three phase shore power that goes through a removed salvage valve in the head and then down into after battery. In after battery we have transformers, DC rectifiers, etc. The rectifiers supply the normal 250 VDC and 120 VDC battery taps. We have the buss tie closed so the boat thinks it is getting all its DC power from fwd battery.
To get 120 VAC from after battery to maneuvering where our DC-AC motor generators and their distribution panel is located, we lifted three of the massive wires that form one lead of the DC power in both after battery and the entrance to the cubicle. These supply the AC distribution panel. So the boat thinks that two of the MG sets are running. We have not restored the other two, but it would be a fun project.
We supply the 250 VDC emergency lighting circuit with a computer style UPS and a small rectifier. A jumper crosses the port/starboard supply that originally had half the lights on fwd battery and half on aft battery. The handles are removed from the switches so they are all on. The benefit is that we have four batteries that get replaced after 7 or 8 years, there is also light pretty much everywhere, and there are no ugly modern emergency lights.
The 120 VDC lighting circuit is on DC. Interestingly, all the CFL and LED light bulbs we have tried have worked fine on DC. The DC fluorescent light ballasts in the crew's mess and wardroom were long gone. We found modern ballasts that work with 120 VDC.
On a normal day all of the 250 VDC switched disconnects are open at the aux switchboard. We only close them when we want to run a particular piece of 250 VDC gear. This minimizes the hazard to the public and corrosion from small leakage. The 120 VDC lighting circuit is always on as is the 120 VAC circuit. Fuses are removed from any equipment/circuits that have not been restored or is dangerous. We have locks on all the switched disconnects that can be operated. It has been a really good system.
3- I think others have answered the startup issues. The engines are started with compressed air. Right now we have shoreside compressors that feed the original shore supply fitting. We used to have #1 HP air compressor working, but it now in pieces with the crew slowly working on restoring it.
A boat needs either the aux or enough battery to excite a main engine generation to bootstrap.
rich
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FYI, a list of equipment operated during the museum period on Pampanito is at:
http://www.maritime.org/pres/restoper.htm
This has not been updated in a while, not all of this probably works now, but at least we know these were complete at the time we operated them. Some are laid up because they are too resource intensive to keep working. For example the HP air compressor is down for repair. HP air is really hard to keep the tanks hydro tested, relief valves tested, etc. Because of this, after we get the HP air compressor working again we will probably not run it very much.
We just added a non-historic hydraulic pump so we can operate hydraulics without the HP air needed for the accumulator. See:
http://www.maritime.org/pres/hydr/index.htm
rich
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Thank you Rich for the updates, I am sure this will help all of the museum boats out that are working hard on restoring their boats.
Darrin