SUBMARINEMUSEUMS.ORG Forum
Individual Submarine Boards => USS Batfish (SS-310) => Topic started by: Rick on May 28, 2008, 12:56:54 PM
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There has been a lot of discussion as to what we shoudl restore and how we should restore it. I believe that we need to pick a target date for restoration and work to get the Batfish to look as close as possible. I picked Feb 1945 as that is we sank our 3 subs on 2/11, 2/12, and 2/13 of 1945. Your opinion is welcome.
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I'd assume you have a copy of the war patrol reports that state what was done between each patrol as far as refitting goes? I (myself) would think that any sub would look terrific with the "end of the war" look. Any major changes between February of 1945 and the end of the war?
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Rick,
You'll only get a few votes on here (I voted, anyway). You'd get a lot more votes by creating a poll on the Batfish Yahoo! group.
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What were the major differences in the boat from say '43 to early '45 ? Seems that making it into '45 configuration would somewhat limit out earlier war events if we wanted to go the complete "stich counter" way...Then again '45 is when the boat "earned its fame" so that would be the best for the boat...The public wont notice the minor differences anyway when we do earlier stuff...So im for '45....
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In '43 there was a 4" deck gun mounted forward of the bridge and the long wire antennas were aft, for starters. By the end of the war these items were reversed, plus other equipment was upgraded, like the surface and air radars.
You're right that the public won't knwo or care if the date that we reenact matches the boat configuration. This is more for restoration sanity.
If and when we get a deck gun mounted, we could write a script for attacking some sampans with all of the deck and bridge guns. I would like to see the AA guns and maybe the deck gun modified to fire gas - gas guns. Even better for the deck gun would be to use 3" salute cannon blanks that could be loaded and ejected. All pie in the sky right now, but doable.
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What were the major differences in the boat from say '43 to early '45 ? Seems that making it into '45 configuration would somewhat limit out earlier war events if we wanted to go the complete "stich counter" way...Then again '45 is when the boat "earned its fame" so that would be the best for the boat...The public wont notice the minor differences anyway when we do earlier stuff...So im for '45....
Welcome to the forum Fwd-Torpedo-Franklin! Are you a Batfish volunteer?
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I vote for the second decommission , If we are trying to be authentic this will be the only restoration that can be authentic due to the permanent apperance changes made to her, such as to the bridge and sail area. I would like to see the deck gun replaced. Although this would not be authentic to this configeration.
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What is different about the sail, other than that ugly platform on the SD mast? Some of us would like to see that thing disappear. The forward smoking deck was bigger than it is, now, but it's not as noticeable with only a 20mm mount.
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Some of us would like to see that thing disappear.
Put it on your to do list and get rid of it.
My 2 cents is that we get the deck done and then revisit this. There has been too much "I'd like to see this" and "I'd like to see that" when hardly anyone shows up to help. I challenge everyone to come out and sweat a little getting this done.
43-44-45, it really doesn't matter much, the changes are listed on the patrol reports on the Batfish website. The main problem will be getting anyone out there to do the work. If you want a bigger forward cigarette deck, then talk to Vaughn about making one. Then we can put another 40 on it...if you can find one. What about the deck gun? all we have at the park is a 3" gun. Be my guest trying to find a 4" or 5".
The majority of people aren't going to notice or care.
Oh, and I was at the Naval Air Museum in Pensacola on Tuesday. Do you know they have over 300 volunteers?
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Working on the deck gun. I made a contact in San Francisco. He's getting some base POCs out there. Apparently, they have two wet-mount 5" guns and Paul F. led me to them. Once we convince the vets out there to give us the gun, the rest is paper work.
I agree that if you don't show up to help, you have no business asking for "favors". I thought that it was a little pathetic that only four of the reenacting crew was there last weekend to work on the deck. We would have had everything finished forward of the FTR stairs, if 4 more crew members had shown up. Part of it was planning the work over a holiday weekend. Especially Memorial Day when summer vacation officially kicks off.
I wouldn't mind climbing up the SD mast to remove the platform. We just need a crane to keep it from falling once the bolts and welds are loosened.
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I agree that if you don't show up to help, you have no business asking for "favors". I thought that it was a little pathetic that only four of the reenacting crew was there last weekend to work on the deck. We would have had everything finished forward of the FTR stairs, if 4 more crew members had shown up. Part of it was planning the work over a holiday weekend. Especially Memorial Day when summer vacation officially kicks off.
Maybe you make it a requirement that they come out at least 4 times a year (or other time frame). I understand what you do and why you do it, but there should be some "put back" into the sub or it won't be there to do what you do. Maybe your re-enactors could be a "refit" crew one time while the sub is in drydock and let everyone know that this time, we are the relief crew. Just an idea. My 2 cents (again) is that if you want to come out and enjoy the "spoils", you need to contribute back.
I wouldn't mind climbing up the SD mast to remove the platform. We just need a crane to keep it from falling once the bolts and welds are loosened.
Yeah, that's a must cuz it would fall right down on the 40mm...maybe thru the deck...and then Rick wouldn't let us come back.
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Correy actually set up last weekend as a 1944 Refit Crew event ... and then he realized that he couldn't make it in early/mid April and it snow-balled from there. Other people had other reenacting commitments and they started dropping off one by one. A few people had work conflicts, which you can't do anything about. I'm starting to notice that for some folks the Batfish is sort of a side show and that the hard core dedicated folks are a small band. Back in January Correy set up a poll on the Yahoo! group forum asking everyone how often we wanted to hold events on the boat. I was one of the few that said 3 or more times per year. Most people voted for 2 events and a few voted for once a year.
In addition to a hole in the aft cigarette deck, someone is sure to get hurt. He estimated the weight at several hundred pounds.
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All Volunteers, check your email.......
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I haven't seen anything, yet.
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check your email.......
received and understood....and I agree 100%.
I gave some feedback...all positive, at least I meant it as positive. :D
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Yoooooooo heeey, now wait a minute here... you guys better not be talking about the VHF whip antenna tray on the SD mast!!! That is CORRECT for fleet boats that came out of refits after March 1945!!! :'(
Ugly? It's a matter of opinion... who the hell gave anyone of us the right to say anything on a sub is ugly!!! ??? !!! I used to think that all fleet subs in their pre-guppy states were ugly spitkits full of rails, wires, open masts, etc. And that only Guppys and Nukes were pretty... now I know better! For shame! :idiot2:
Seriously guys... this is where a curator is needed. And his or her decisions are not based on democratic principles, hell NO! This is not something you vote on. Rather it is done based on a realistic evaluation of the situation, regarding money -- MONEY!!!! and resources (like volunteers who rarely show up, welcome to the club guys. It's just a fact of life and you have to accept it and work around it.). Often, it is best to do NOTHING!!! if by doing something you are doing the wrong thing, like removing a valid improvement made to fleet subs that allowed them to communicate using a VHF whip instead of the long wires exclusively.
It would be aking to removing your Type 8 search periscope because it was fat and ugly!!!
By doing little or no topside changes you can have an accurate, near perfect late, non-guppied Fleet sub (modified for public tours that is). The forward gun deck lip or overhang was removed to "streamline" the CT when the guns were removed. The lip can be replaced, along with any extensions to the aft end of the CT that may have also been removed at the same time for the same reason. Then put a 27-foot whip antenna on the whip tray you were trying to remove! It belongs there! The 40mm guns and 5 in gun can be found!!! You wouldn't put a flate screen TV in a 1956 CHEVY restoration now would you? Or more correctly, you wouldn't put a 1938 tube radio in your 2008 Lincoln Navigator? So why would you put 1944 parts on a 1952 USS BATFISH? Fact is, any post-war mods on Batfish were probably just late 1945 mods, as was done to COD in 1952 -- that is they brought her up to the standard March 1945 fleet sub configuration in 1952 as a way of saving money --- they didn't bring her up to 1952 standards, which would have required a Guppy mod of some sort, along with interior changes.
Appoint a curator, give that person the authority to decide what the boat should look like. Removing a piece of historic fabric is not the way to go. COD lost a smattering of such things to our WWII subvets who didn't know what they were doing... they were trying to make their work load easy by cutting and shitcaning anything that might require paint and de-rusting... welll carry that forward far enough and you end up with an empty steel tube.
There are lots of fun, easy, and informative resources on basic ship curation. And lots of us willing to help.
Paul
(I'll shoot the first sunavabitch who approaches that sacred sub with a cutting torch!!! YOU HEAR ME!!!!????) :tickedoff:
-- that wan't too over the top, was it?
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LOOK OUT! PAUL'S GOT A GUN!! :2funny:
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Yeah, a Mark 40, 5-inch, .25-caliber! :2funny:
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LOL! I don't remember seeing the platform in any of the late '45 photos of the Batfish when she was saling into SF Harbor, but if it's a late-war refit design, then we'll leave it there. We definitely appreciate your 2 cents, Paul. It will continue to save us a lot of work and from destroying something that should be saved.
Like I said in the fluorescent lighting post, the more that I find out about fleet boats, the more that I realize that the Batfish went through very few mods after the war. They pretty much kept her running as-is through her late 60's decommissioning - minus the gun removals.
Btw, we do have the AA guns mounted. The 5" will make her complete in that respect. Other than the deck, paitning, and the 5" gun, the last remaning restoration externally will be setting up the long-wires again (and adding outer doors tothe tubes).
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As the Park Maneger, I am the curator. I open this question to pole opinions. The final say falls in my lap. The reason that I opened this pole to begind with is to eliminate many of the arguments that are developing now. I am not into willy nilly changes and mods to the submarine of musum. This take it as it comes attitude habe been the SOP for the Batfish too long. It is going to stop. With a target restoration date I can start saying yea or ney to any portential modifications. This is also the reason I sent the previous email this last week.
For example, We will not be moving the AC units. they are installed using exhisting plumbing to move them now would be a major overhaul of a system that is already in place. This is just one example sf a post war mod that will not and cannot be changed.
This is a 65 foot boat with a 12 acre park that needs to be taken care of. If you intrest lies in the boat is also lies in the park and Museum. We are a package deal. As the Park Manager I take everyones opinions into consideration as I am doing this for you and the vets. I have been given the authority to make the final decision on all projects.
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Agreed on all. I'm just an idea guy. I'm in a learning process and I don't mind having my ideas shot down.
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This is a 65 foot boat
Did all the rain shrink it?
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rain shrinkage, or the rust was far, far worse than any of us suspected! :2funny:
Good to hear that BATFISH is in capable hands. Over the years I have talked with a wide range of folks who either claimed responsibility or in fact had that responsibility, and nothing seemed to happen in a positive sense. The good news is that finally, 65 years on, most of the boats are being recognized by a small group of energetic people as the true treasures they are. And not subvet clubhouses just for vets, who could do anything (and did) they pleased.
OH the horror stories I have seen over the past 32 years!!! I need electroshock therapy to sleep at night (and lots of pills... pills, and more pills :buck2: )
Without access to the records, I would have to guess that BATFISH ended the war with whatever late-war modifications she had at a shipyard. After VJ Day the Gatos remained in whatever state they ended the war in and were not modernised unless they were recomissioned for some purpose -- SSK or foreign service... but the thick-skinned Balaos were too valuable and most were expected to be Guppized. But the USN soon discovered that the Guppy process was becoming waaaay too expensive with each batch of boats going into the shipyards... even when less expensive Guppy versions were ordered, including the fleet snorkel mod boats like TORSK. BATFISH avoided the Guppy program somehow (thankfully)... probably because of soaring costs and the increasing need for nuclear subs. So she was given a dockside "streamlining" as in cutting down the gun deck overhangs, etc. Not pretty, but reversable if desirable. Subs kept in service after VJ day were given a late 1945 mod antenna rig (VHF whip antenna tray, etc.) to keep them up to date while awaiting more extensive modernizations. I am sure any 1946-era pics of BATFISH would reveal the presence of the whip tray.
Here is a not so crazy thought... since she is aground, it would not be that difficult someday to dig under her, set keel block pilings in place, and then excavate around them to "get her up and out of the mud' like ALBACORE ... and since my dreams have not buget limitations, once her hull is coated, the boat could be surrounded by a cofferdam and man-made lake that could be filled and drained when needed so she could look like she was afloat! But until then, we have to keep the old girl looking nice and finding the missing goodies...
Like I said, the pills help with the "creative thinking" :uglystupid2:
PF
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We've batted around the man-made pond idea with the boat resting on blocks. It would definitley be the best of both worlds. Easy maintenance and a realistic setting. Money is still the issue.
In my humble opinion, the boat will have to be floated just to get the blocks put in place, anyway. Once afloat, I would use heavy equipment to pull her off to one side of the basin, lay the blocks with a crane (and maybe divers assisting) and then pull her back into position. The water level would have to be high enough to float her over the blocks and then drain it to get her to settle down. The blocks wouldn't have to be very high, either. Just high enough for access under the keel.
Yeah, I haven't seen too many mods to Batfish other than the Navy hacking away the guns and mounts. Just about all of the internal equipment is vintage 40's gear, including the radios - the hams brought some new stuff on board for their use. There is a 1960's loud speaker that was installed in the CT, but the CT's main problem has been looting. Lots of gauges and black boxes have grown legs and walked. Thank God the WCA sound gear and SS-2 radar were too heavy to move. :)
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Sorry MarkA
65 year old boat 311 feet long.
Paul,
Thank you for being understanding...