SUBMARINEMUSEUMS.ORG Forum
Individual Submarine Boards => USS Ling (SS-297) => Topic started by: Carl on March 03, 2008, 11:18:53 AM
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The Ling sits on the Hackensack River on property owned by Malcolm Borg and the North Jersey Media Group (the publisher of almost all local newspapers serving Northern New Jersey) The property also houses a major newpaper production plant that is now idle since the production has been moved to another location. Borg wants to sell the property to a developer and has asked the Ling to move.
There are several complicating factors. First, a bridge just downriver of the Ling is on the verge of collapse and the Bergen County government is trying to get a replacement built. This added fuel to Borg's fire because the County wanted to install a cheap fixed bridge which would have locked the Ling in place. To the County's dismay, they were told the river upstream of the bridge was still considered to be navigable by the USCG and the National Historical Association told them the bridge was a Landmark and could only be replaced by an exact duplicate swing bridge. Pressure off - somewhat.
Adding to the problem, the river downstream of the Ling has gotten silted up and has a depth of only 6 feet in many areas. The Ling itself only comes off the bottom with really high tides and following major storms. USCG estimates north of $7M to dredge (not counting any EPA problems with probable contaminated fill). If the Ling were moved downsteam, it would also have to go under several bridges and their current construction soundness is problematic. This also removes the possibility of floating the Ling the same way the Razorback was floated.
So, either the Ling stays essentially where it is, or it is moved in pieces. The latter possibility has been proposed by the Mayor of Paterson New Jersey who wants to move the Ling to the Passaic River and into a new National Park that is being considered by Congress for the Great Falls area. He wants the Ling upstream of the falls (certainly isn't going to float it there). The connection makes some sense because John Holland built the Holland I in Paterson, and it is still there (with the Holland III - Fenian Ram) in the Paterson museum. The museum is just a few blocks from the proposed location for the Ling. $$$$$?????
Staying in place is probably the best option, but it will require some accommodation between the property owner and the County/State. In these economic times, convincing the voting public to pay more taxes is always a tough sell.
Note that the only other viable alternative may be razor blades!
If anything new comes up, I'll try to update this. Please sign our petition and mail it in. You can find the petition at http://mysite.verizon.net/resx5uqm/savetheling/index.html
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Jeez that's rough but at least it sounds like it may have bought a little time. Maybe they could sale to a devloper who would understand the value of having an historic ship there. Good luck.
Tom Bowser
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OK, so what is the value of having a sub on the property? If you don't have any control over the boat, it represents liability to the property owner, who probably is hoping to build condos, etc. Sadly, the LING should be in a situation where it can be restored (fixed) and available to a large audience. My feeling is that its present berth can not provide that. She is a very unique boat, having all of her SARGO II batteries (oh, if only COD could say that! :o)
She will be saved, somehow. It is too valuable to scrap.
Paul
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Wouldn't having a tourist attraction on a property increase values? Not only would the residents have something to do, but it would also bring more potential buyers into the area.
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I would like to think the Ling would be attractive to potential new residents of that area and that they would consider it an enhancement of their property. I think the reality may be more apathetic. We lived in the Hampton Roads area when they moved the U.S.S. Wisconsin to the Nauticus/Hampton Roads Naval Museum and the people in the condos across the slip complained about the battlewagon blocking their views. >:( People probably didn't feel that way about the Wisconsin when she was hurling 16-inch shells of whup-a** at the Japanese, North Koreans and Tomahawks at the Iraqis.
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Yea I think they would be glad she is blocking there view from fascist's and dictatorships. But if anyone complains of a submarine blocking thier view they would have to be a really short. lol.
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Remember, it's not just the Ling, it's also a Kaiten, a SeaHund, a PBR, several missiles, the New Jersey Gudgeon memorial, and the NJ Naval Museum that, although small, is filled with artifacts. The Navy would like to see both of the midgets and the PBR in a building because they are quite rare. Only 1 other SeaHund still exists. That makes a fairly large property requirement, not just a view-block on the riverfront.
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I just remembered another possibility to get the Ling to a new home, as long as it isn't very far: About five years ago, they raised the U-505 in Chicago into wheels, rolled her over to the edge of the new underground exhibit hall they built for her and lowered her down. The display is amazing and something everyone should see, but I digress. The Ling would have to be lifted out of the water. It would be about nine feet wider, 60 feet longer and heavier and taller than a Type IXC U-boat but I think still could be done. Can it be done between Hackensack and Passaic? I don't know but maybe it's an option worth a look.
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They used a large crane to move the Batfish from the barges into the water before towing her into her final berth. So, anything is possible if you have the money.
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As a long term member of USSVI, a plankowner of the North Jersey Base, and having been involved in the operation, maintenance and politics of the Ling at various levels from tour guide and duty electrician, to Board Member and Executive Director for >30 years I'm fairly knowledgeable on the subject.
Firstly: The Ling, the PBR, the Kaiten, the Seehund and all the missiles, anchors, mines, etc are on loan to the Submarine Memorial Association/NJ Naval Museum from, and are the property of, the USN. They are inspected by the Navy annually and they tell us what maintenance is required. They cannot be moved or modified in any way without prior permission.
Secondly: As far as involving them in a profit making enterprise is a big no no. That was tried with Croaker in Groton and before you could blink a YTB from subase showed up and "took their submarine".
Thirdly: The interior of the boat and the pressure hull are in fine shape but the outer hull and tanks are terribly rusted and falling apart and I can't see repair, at any cost, as a viable alternative. The only thing that"s saving her is the cradle of silt that she's lying in and supported by with hight tide hiding the rottenest parts.
Fourthly: Scrapping in place doesn't seem very practical if this is what the USN opts for except that the batteries are still there. That's about 250 tons of lead which may make it profitable along with all the brass and bronze, but who knows.
Please post comments, arguments, good ideas, whatever that might make me feel better about this whole deal.
AtoZ
Age & Treachery
Will always prevail
Over Youth & Vigor
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1 - 4 don't sound good. #5 - USN gives Ling some respect and donates her to the museum :'(
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Croaker didn't get into trouble with the Navy over "profit" status...
The subvets running the boat as their clubhouse let the boat fall into such disrepair that the Navy was forced to repo the boat when no one was willing or able to step into the situation and change things... it ended up being given to Buffalo, NY.
PF :police:
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Is the corrosion on her hull so severe they cannot tow her at all? Or would it be possible to get her to a drydock and patch her up before towing her in open ocean? What about building a temporary cofferdam around her and patching her up that way? Both of these ideas seem pretty expensive, and the cost of dredging to get her out of there is in the millions too.
I think it is pessimistic to say that she is beyond viable repair. She's not sunk yet, so there must be a way to refloat her. But then, what do I know. :uglystupid2:
Even as I say this, it truly seems that the only viable way to save Ling, barring intervention by the state/city/federal government/really rich sub guy (take your pick) is to keep her where she is.
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So, what's the current status of the Ling? Is she still on the rocks?
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So, what's the current status of the Ling? Is she still on the rocks?
I haven't heard anything in a while.
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Anything on this? Its rolling past 2 years now. The njnm.com site is gone. :'( What's the latest word? Do the remaining Balao's need to rent some trucks and go salvage hunting?
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There is a July 2012 video posted on YouTube of a group that visited the boat. So, I guess she's still open as a museum.
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Gang, I posted an article in the general museum boat discussion about the LING museum being closed because of damage from 'superstorm' Sandy.
So, LING is closed until they get some cash.
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At least she isn't scrapped.
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The NJNM has a new website at a completely different address. Once I determine if it's the proper new site, I'm going to update all the links here. I don't know what's up with that.
edit:
Old domain that I had listed here was allowed to expire and purchased by China. New domain has been updated here. It just went from a .com to a .org is all.
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I just spoke with Les at the Ling and here is the latest. The museum is closed indefinately. The exhibits are in good shape but the building is not. Money for repairs has yet to be found. The Ling itself survived but is listing 20 degrees to Port. They haven't been able to get to her to blow the water out of the tanks. Also, when Sandy hit and the surge came through the Ling moved from her "fitted" bottom-mud berth and did not resettle back in place. They've got some real trouble up there.
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Jim,
Did they have any idea when they might try to deal with the list? If they have not been able to get to her to blow the water out of the tanks, I wonder what else it is that they may find once they can get to her. And any chance of getting a few picutres of her with the current list?
Thank you!
Thomas, Slater Volunteer
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This is all the info I got from Les. Nada on the pics.
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Ahh, Alright. And it seems the ling is not all that popular with the news seeing how this is the only article I cold find in relation to her current status is. http://www.northjersey.com/community/192432821_Navy_museum_remains_closed__seeks_funding_for_repairs_submarine_Ling_site.html?c=y&page=1 (http://www.northjersey.com/community/192432821_Navy_museum_remains_closed__seeks_funding_for_repairs_submarine_Ling_site.html?c=y&page=1)
If only we had a ling person on the forums to answer all of our questions ::)
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I'm working on that. Unfortunately, the Ling's curator does not own a computer so all of the e-mails go unread. I have talked to Les about a good designee.
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We need to wake Carl (http://www.submarinemuseums.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=18) up!
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This past Saturday while down in New Jersey visiting Family I taked the dad into stoping by the ling to take a look at her condition.
Pictures - http://s853.photobucket.com/user/qaz14595/library/USS%20Ling%20March%202013 (http://s853.photobucket.com/user/qaz14595/library/USS%20Ling%20March%202013)
The biggest two things I noticed was
1. Her morring lines - I would have thought they would have alteast made sure they where not so loose they where partly under the water. Another thing that surprised me as you saw in one of the pictures they still have a pile morring line or two that seem to be still mostly buried in silt ext. that eventually I think? seem to be tied somewhere. Along with how there was also what appeared to be a good morring line that seems to be semi-covered in moss growing on it.
2. You had to almost continuously watch where you walked to avoid goose droppings, I wonder just how much of Ling herself is covered in droppings. It also seems like there might be geese living in that area under the main deck (Though I could easily be wrong about that!).
All in all still seems like a fair amount of cleanup still needs to be done!
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The Ling looks a LOT better than I expected and I don't understand why the museum hasn't started clean up and pulling the mooring lines out of the water and opening her back up... WTFO?? FYI that torpedo that is missing the warhead has not been on display in a number of years when obviously the warhead fell off due to lack of maintenance and the locking ring decided to give up the ghost.
Wish I was closer to the Ling because she looks intact and just has a nice up angle on it right now and I wonder if she has water collecting in her ATR and in the lower flats of Manuvering and the Engine rooms, would be nice to put some temp power to her and a large air compressor to blow her stern tanks dry once more and let her refloat herself.
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If the musem got some money and some more help then the Ling would start to look like the Cod or the torsk :)
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kbob welcome aboard,
Thank you for the update on the Ling and what an unexpected update hearing that the paper company sold the land.. Hopefully she will find a new home very quickly
Darrin
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Here is a more accurate statement regarding the LING's status. No the land has NOT been sold and NO she does not have to move within 30 days.
http://www.bottomgun.com/bbs2/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=14839&posts=4#M70893
Darrin
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Thanks for the update. I wonder if plans are still underway for having Ling open to the public again?
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The Ling opened for the season on May 3rd. Now open Sat. & Sun. between 10AM to 4PM.
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That is GREAT NEWS!!
:) :) :)
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FYI The Ling reopens for the season on May 2. Still only on weekends between 10am to 4pm.
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FYI The Ling is closed for emergency repairs. Unknown when she reopen.
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Emergency repairs? Any details?
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All,
Let's hope that it is nothing major and she can be fixed quickly, if anyone has an update as it comes please update the rest of us.
Thanks,
Darrin
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Well, some sad news from the sounds of it :-[ It seems this time they have actually been told they have 30 days to vacate... Whole article is here including a video http://www.njtvonline.org/news/video/redevelopment-plans-raise-concerns-uss-ling/ (http://www.njtvonline.org/news/video/redevelopment-plans-raise-concerns-uss-ling/)
The Submarine Memorial Association was given 30 days to vacate the premises with an out date of May 31. That’s standard for a month-to-month lease. But there’s a snag.
De Laat and Les Altschuler say the USS Ling and many of the museum’s artifacts are on loan from the Navy, meaning they can’t be moved without permission.
The Navy is set to visit the site on June 6 to take inventory. The Submarine Memorial Association says it’s highly unlikely they’ll get permission to move items before that May 31 deadline.
“The very real possibility exists that if we cannot present this situation well to the Navy, they may come in and just say, ‘We’re going to eliminate this entire museum and memorial,’” de Laat said.
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Based on what I've seen, the Ling will be gone before long. Not before the Clamagore. Who is next after that? Lionfish maybe. It's a sad time for museum subs.
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Lance,
It is sad, indeed... something I never thought I'd see. It's one thing to write about it in an academic sense, but to see the slow spiral in motion and not really be able to do much about it is another.
The Lionfish?? Really?
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Speaking as a Lionnfish (SS-298) volunteer, I sure hope she isn't the next one to go. And suffer the fate her younger sister her sister the Ling (SS-297) is possibly facing.
I read this website with some envy when I hear about the amazing work done by volunteers to get some of the boats in such great shape that equipment actually operates, like engines that run or periscopes that raise and lower.
We don't have the resources to accomplish anything as impressive as that. There are only 3 volunteers working on the Lionfish. The goal is to make her look good. A proud memorial to the men who served on her. We do get help where students from the Naval Academy Prep school in Newport, or Massachusetts maritime, or Maine maritime come for a 1/2 day to help us out. And we had two incredibly generous welders from the Groton sub base come for a few days. A plank owner visited her last year and thanked us for taking care of his boat, that made me feel good.
The Cove is typically open 363 days a year. In the 5 years have been working on the boat it was only closed for one two week period because the brow got broken in a storm, and the visitors could not safely walk onto the boat.
I think last year over 7000 visitors came aboard on one day, well it was the Cove's free entry day. So the Lionfish is still going strong. Sorta, she is made of metal, is floating in water, and rust and deterioration of the deck is a constant battle.
And it has been a long time since the last drydock "tuneup".
Best wishes to all of us who work hard to keep the boats going.
Drew
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Thanks for the update Drew. It's nice to hear Lionfish is doing well!!!
Regards,
Gil
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Drew, hang in there with the Lionfish.
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If anyone wishes to know the status of the Ling, look for a copy of Wierd NJ magazine#40 . You'll find an article there.
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Sadly, I need to report that the USS Ling has been flooded and is now setting on the bottom after vandals got onboard :'(
I truly wish that I had better news however her time is now pretty much over other then the memories unless someone steps in with a big checkbook to save her
Darrin :-[ :-[
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I hope the vandals are found and the true story of why comes out.
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She is still flooded and setting in the mud from what I have seen, sadly I think I maybe too late to save her now due to how long she has been flooded :-[ :-[ :-[
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Ling to Muskogee Rumor?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwYbQ2exWLY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwYbQ2exWLY)
I know it's a year old, but this is the first I've heard of this. Anyone got any updates?
Mark
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There is a group trying to fix her and have been in talks with the local mayor and a waterfront group