SUBMARINEMUSEUMS.ORG Forum
Individual Submarine Boards => USS Batfish (SS-310) => Topic started by: Travis McLain on March 06, 2008, 06:38:59 PM
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Just got done talking to Rick on the phone. He said the deck needs to be replaced first, as the Navy says it is a safety issue. I asked Rick about the 5" gun, I asked where it was coming from and he said they have one, (I hope he is not talking about the giant one right outside the museum) as it is not the submarine wet mount 5" gun. Also he said he is working with the Batfish foundation with the paint job, because he heard they have enough money for it, but he does not know what is going on in that department, as to why they have not given it to the museum. So there is an update, and a new topic to stop posting in the Torsk section.
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Just got done talking to Rick on the phone.
I'll be there this Saturday, have some website stuff to discuss and I'll pick Rick's brain on some things and see if I can get any clarification on what is going on.
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He said he would be sending out a new "scuttlebutt" email soon as well.
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I'll be there this Saturday, have some website stuff to discuss and I'll pick Rick's brain on some things and see if I can get any clarification on what is going on.
Remember to take lots of pics and share them!
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Remember to take lots of pics and share them!
Your photos are on my "to do" list ;D
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On the Drum I am going to have to make four stern tube shutters and one bow tube shuter, should be fun. We have tube 7 outer door working and hope to get the others when I dig them out of the rust. Good luck with your shutters if you decide to do them.
Tom bowser
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Getting those shutters up will really complete the outside of the old girl. Weld them in, paint and enjoy.
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I know as of now, there is some worldwide scavenger hunt (forget the name of it) item where the outer after tube doors would be, so we would have to make sure that the scavenger hunt people know that it has been moved when they come look for it, if we weld the outer doors back on. LOL. :D
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Remember to take lots of pics and share them!
Your photos are on my "to do" list ;D
Hey Mark, can you get some good photos of the new museum expansion room? Just to show everyone on here the new room with the U.S.S. Oklahoma memorial.
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Hey Mark, can you get some good photos of the new museum expansion room? Just to show everyone on here the new room with the U.S.S. Oklahoma memorial.
Sadly, they have removed the USS Oklahoma memorial. I can't remember where...but it's not there anymore.
I can take pics next time I'm down (in 2 weeks). Vaughn and Mary framed up the entry way and it looks real nice. Got phase one of the SHARK memorial done (photos to share and to email will be later today). Phase 2 will be in two weeks (weather permitting - there was snow on the ground yesterday) which will include painting the torpedo.
Lance - I have your photos also...need to download from my camera and send them later today.
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Why did they remove the Oklahoma memorial? That is kind of strange.
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Lance - I have your photos also...need to download from my camera and send them later today.
Great!
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Why did they remove the Oklahoma memorial? That is kind of strange.
I think that they said that the Batfish museum was just a temporary display. I think the USO was going to take it on the road to help them raise money for the memorial. What you saw was only an advertisement (like they used to do to raise war bonds).
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Lance and Bill...I'll have your photos emailed tonight (Monday)...just ran out of time yesterday.
Travis, I'll also post the photo of the SHARK that shows what we got accomplished Saturday. On the 22nd, the torpedo gets a new coat of paint plus the whole area gets a good cleaning (dirt, debris, etc...)
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Mark, I am glad that you and your wife are working on the Shark memorial, it will look great with a new coat of paint.
What all do they have in place of the Oklahoma memorial?
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Lance - I have your photos also...need to download from my camera and send them later today.
Photos, photos, wherefore art thou, photos? :) email 'em to me bud.
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Photos, photos, wherefore art thou, photos? email 'em to me bud.
I sent you three of them just now via email. Take a look and let me know if they'll work.
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They look great! Too bad the grass isn't green yet though. hehe
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They look great! Too bad the grass isn't green yet though. hehe
There was actually snow on the ground when we arrived that morning...so I'll take dead grass over snow any day.
If you want one with green grass, I can take more later on in the spring or early summer
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I am going to try and cleirify some questions here. I have already posted most of this info on the reinactors site. I am just getting caught up with you guys.
Ok Memorail exhibit. This was the exhibit that ONEOK used to help rais funds for the memorial in HI. We had it on indefinate loan until the other contributors needed their items back. (Major downer). We currently have an Viet Nam era exhibit in place now and a very small Gulf Wars exhibit in there now( I need more stuff for this one). In the future we will be puting an exhibit featuring torpedos and an exhibit featuring Women in the Service (from Rosie to today). All exhibits are being redeveloped to help remove the clutter and make the museum as a whole more organized.
We actually ahve 2 Geo Cashing sites on the boat. The GPS group shows more intereest then the letter box group. Kind of a neat feature here.
On the issue of paint, I am working with the Batfish Memorail Foundation. Some changes are happening there. It looks like they will be loosing 1 member due to the inactivity of the group. On the good side though, I have started communicating with the board chair Matt Albright. He seems to be willing to help. We just have to learn how to work within their peamiters. I am going to take up the banner on the whole paint issue so to speak to help aleviate all of the past isssues that have occured. I am working with Libert Auto (military vehicle restoration) to develope a process that will include a sand blasting of the boat and repaint. The next step in this process will be to get some one to test the paint on the boat and the soil arround the boat for contamination. The best out come here will be a .5m lead contant on the boat and contaminated soil. This will make things work really well. Liberty Auto has already found some people that will help aleviat the costs by donation of some supplies. I would really like to get our groups involved when it coms time to paint the boat. This way we are only paying for the cost of Liberty Autos time.
Yes, the deck is going down ASAP. The Navy is going to site this as a safty issue. This will be a cut and dry job as all the hardware on the boat is brass and still good. The wood is on site. I just need man power. We will want to miter the joints between each plank that is to be put down. I have technical docs to show how this is to be done. At the same time I would like to replace some of the angle iron in the supperstructure to help support the deck. We will need some welding help and angle iiron to do this. I am going to break the deck down into sections starting at the front and work backwards. We will ahve to work around the visitors as we complet this project. When this job is completed, we will be removing the plywood pathway and the chaiin marking the pathway to allow visitors to walk freely on the deck. We will also move the front fence line to the end of the wood portion of the deck.
I also want to add that Dennis Gilbert is going to try and get the subvets to help on this project during the reunion. I do not forsee them getting the entire deck completed so we could use all the help we can get.
Rick
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Sounds good Rick. I am not that good at cutting wood, but I sure will try my best to help over the summer to get the deck put on.
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I'll assist where I can. Even if it means bolting new wood to the deck. What type of wood are you using? Ipe?
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We are using a Brazilian Purple Heart wood. This is the same wood that the Cavalla used and is the closest thing to Teak that we can get. We are not going to treat it in any way. It is my understanding that the Cavalla tried to treat their wood, but was unsuccessful as the wood was too dense and would not absorbe anything.
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I assume that treating and painting are two different things?
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No, they are the same. According to the Cavala the wood just does not take it. Also as is ages, it pick up that nice dark grey color. i have pics of the cavalla deck remind me next time you come down and I will show you what they look like.
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Okay. Sounds good to me. One less thing that we have to paint. :)
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Luckily the wood is already kind of aged. lol. However, with not being able to paint it, the Batfish will not be in full WWII appearance.
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the Batfish will not be in full WWII appearance
That's not the only thing. There were many post-war modifications. But a new deck, cut and laid out straight, will go along way to helping that.
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Yeah, I know that. It will look alot better, and deifferent though. :)
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I have noticed that there are a lot of hatches cut into the deck. These are obviously access points to get to items in the super structure. Does anyone know if the deck was solid, or did it have these access point there?
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Wahoo. Just made 2 stars. LOL
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I have noticed that there are a lot of hatches cut into the deck. These are obviously access points to get to items in the super structure. Does anyone know if the deck was solid, or did it have these access point there?
Rick, my guess would be yes. This is beacuse they stored alot of items along the superstructure, they had alot of places along there to secure things, I was watching the tour the guy from the Silversides did, and he said they stored armature shafts along the superstructure. Also they had to have been able to access all the lines for the main induction valve. But then again there are probably alot of holes cut in the deck from the countless number of years of work done on the Batfish.
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if you look at archive photos of the BATFISH, alot of the deck is steel. Best I can tell...and it's only a guess...it appears that ~ 40% of the deck was steel and the rest teak.
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There are numerous trap doors in the topside deck of a fleet boat's superstructure. They provide access to compartments that store things such as mooring lines, torpedo loading cranes, as well as access to the main vents, air induction lines, mufflers (yes, fleet boats had them), air flasks, bow plane rigging gear, the tops of the ballast tanks and scuppers for chipping, cleaning and painting. Life rafts, and in the early Gatos, motor boats were stored below decks as well. The main induction valve(s) are located below each boat's "cigarette deck."
I have to question if something as precise as spare armatures were stored in the superstructure. First, the U.S. Navy learned before the war that that was a very rough place to keep sensitive things and that's why it designed its boats with storage for torpedoes inside the pressure hull, starting with the Tambor/Gar class; no more "external" storage for torpedoes and attempts to install external torpedo tubes were failures because the "fish" took a beating and could not be properly maintained.
Second, a spare armature for a main propulsion is huge and heavy, and there would have been no way to get it from topside storage down into the motor room at sea without removing at least part, if not all, of the control cubicle. I believe any main propulsion armature needing repair would have been done so in place by the resourceful electrician's mates or at a shipyard. Remember, most of the fleet boats built during the war had the four-motor propulsion configuration. Only later in the war did they devise a two-motor setup with a large motor on each propeller shaft. A spare armature for a motor-generator set could have been stored somewhere in the pressure hull.
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I meant to say:
"Remember that most of the fleet boats built during the war had the four-motor propulsion configuration ALLOWING THE FLEXIBILITY OF HAVING ONE MOTOR TAKEN OFF LINE FOR MINOR REPAIRS IF NECESSARY."
Sorry all!
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Fred,
When you say "4-motor propulsion", I assume that you are talking about electric motors. I think early boats had 2 engines until probably the Gato class when they started using 4 diesel engines.
I saw a few pole-like items being stored in the bow below deck. I figured that they were either for loading heavy items through the hatches or for securing power cables when moored to a sub tender.
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Fred,
Thanks for the information. It sounds like we will have to address each access point as we come to it. I have also noticed that several of the hatches were decked over at one point in time or another. I do intend to open this access up again. If not for use, for general looks and education purposes...
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mark,
That may have been some of the deck wood that we were storing for a short term. We ran a test run on the deck several month ago using a group of sea cadets that came down and visited. That was a lazy moment.
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I think some of those "hatches" are the holes that open up over the engine rooms. I'm guessing that they were there for material loading or just ventilation. They don't appear to ever have had any ladders. Putting a wooden hatch over them is still a good idea.
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mark,
That may have been some of the deck wood that we were storing for a short term. We ran a test run on the deck several month ago using a group of sea cadets that came down and visited. That was a lazy moment.
I saw the wood, but that's not what I'm referring to. If you look at the port superstructure under the deck at the bow, there are "clamps" on the bulkhead that allow for three metal pipe-like objects to be stowed there. 2 are there and one is missing.
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I like to see things work like they are supposed to be. Even now the engine room hatches would be good to have open when Ed Williams comes down and works on the decks in the engine rooms. The wood hatch idea is a good one.
I will have to check ont he pipe thing. I do not remember seeing them. But 3 kids and an ex tends to make one senial... :)
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They may have planked over the engine hatches just so that they were two less hatches to worry about dogging down once it became a museum - i.e. two less access points for vandals and thieves. From the inside, I think it would be pretty easy to chain it shut at night.
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Dear Mark:
Yes, I use the term "motors" for electric motors and "engines" when referring to diesels. The Navy first began using the so-called four-engine, diesel-electric drive, where the engines weren't connected directly to the propeller shafts in the Porpoise-class boats of the early to mid-1930s. It's just like a diesel railroad locomotive, which coincidentally, were being introduced at the same time.
Also something to consider: There may be topside deck access over what appear to be blank hull openings over the forward and aft battery compartments and forward and aft engine rooms. These "blank" spaces may in fact be so-called "soft patches" or large sections of the pressure hull that were secured with a large, riveted flange but which could be removed to permit the placement or removal of extremely large components such as batteries and engines.
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That's right. It was the Porpoise boats that they switched to the new power-train format.
I'd like to check out those "soft covers". Rick wants to turn the aft battery compartment into a work room. Having a hole to lower things through into the crew's compartment would make a big difference - plus we can charge extra for anyone wanting to sleep under the new sky light. :)
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The Torsk's aft battery is the work room. All tools are here was well as rag, bags, etc. We have a hot water heater and small frig. It keeps all your things together under lock and key. Also provides a place to work on things when visitors start to board. The forward battery is full with the archive material. In the forward torpedo room as you come through the hatch, there is a space below that we keep all the paints and paint related material. It just helps keep your things organized.
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That's the direction that we're heading in. Rick wants to get all of the lockers and storage rooms cleaned out, first, and then we'll go from there. Our new paint job sounds like it's coming into reality, as well as the deck replacement. So, Batfish is getting a face lift this year.
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I have to question if something as precise as spare armatures were stored in the superstructure. First, the U.S. Navy learned before the war that that was a very rough place to keep sensitive things and that's why it designed its boats with storage for torpedoes inside the pressure hull, starting with the Tambor/Gar class; no more "external" storage for torpedoes and attempts to install external torpedo tubes were failures because the "fish" took a beating and could not be properly maintained.
Second, a spare armature for a main propulsion is huge and heavy, and there would have been no way to get it from topside storage down into the motor room at sea without removing at least part, if not all, of the control cubicle. I believe any main propulsion armature needing repair would have been done so in place by the resourceful electrician's mates or at a shipyard. Remember, most of the fleet boats built during the war had the four-motor propulsion configuration. Only later in the war did they devise a two-motor setup with a large motor on each propeller shaft. A spare armature for a motor-generator set could have been stored somewhere in the pressure hull.
Armature is just what came to my mind at the time, sorry. Also, referncing the silversides video again, their engine rooms did have ladders going up to the deck. On another note, the hatches may have been decked over to ease walking on the deck, just thinking here. If they were walking alon the deck it may have been a hassle to step down on the hatch, also if they ever had to run along the deck, like when rescuing a downed pilot under fire, they might have twisted an ankle or something if they stepped down onto the hatch. so im thinking they put wood on the hatch so it would be easier to walk over. But it is just a guess.
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No problem, Travis. A few deck hatches, especially the after battery compartment hatch (leads to the crew's dinette) and engine room hatch both have sections of deck over them to make it easier for people to walk over them. The after battery hatch would have teak decking over it and the engine room hatch a piece of steel with a hole in the middle. But those hatches probably would never have been opened except when in port. As far as I know, the bridge hatch was the only hatch used to prevent flooding in case they had to dive to escape a plane or something. I've seen video of various lifeguard rescues by boats with the gun access trunk from the control room that they would hand the rescued up to the bridge instead of sending them down a deck hatch.
Engine room hatches had ladders to them but they probably would have been removed and hung in the overhead during a patrol. Same thing with hatches in the torpedo rooms. Otherwise, they'd be in the way.
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Engine room hatches had ladders to them but they probably would have been removed and hung in the overhead during a patrol. Same thing with hatches in the torpedo rooms. Otherwise, they'd be in the way.
That makes sense.
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There were a lot of access hatches in the deck, especially aft for access to the engine exhaust, etc. We have two aft of the aft torpedo loading hatch and one just forward of it. Does Batfish have metal deck from aft of the aft gun station or wood. Drum has the original metal deck aft. We replace the wood deck with steel channel, which I hate.
Tom
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We currently have the wood deck. I had planned to keep it that way. I really want to have access to those hatches that go into the galley and Engin rooms for when we do work there. These are the only ventalation that we have...
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Agreed. If it's a nice, breezy, clear day outside, it would be nice to pop a hatch in one of those rear areas. I know that the conning tower and control room benefit from this.
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Agreed. If it's a nice, breezy, clear day outside, it would be nice to pop a hatch in one of those rear areas. I know that the conning tower and control room benefit from this.
I tell you what, it's eerie to feel a breeze coming through the sub. I'm sure Tom got a kick out of me in October last year when we were standing in the middle of the Drum and I felt a breeze blow through. It kinda spooked me and I was like "Where is that breeze coming from??". I have no idea why I found it odd.
I'm a newbie at submarine museums compared to all of you guys.
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When it's chilly outside and cold and damp inside, a breeze does creep you out. Especially, if you're in a compartment all by yourself. Subconsciously, I think everyone treats old boats/ships like the Queen Mary.
On a 70 degree spring day, a cool, dry breeze is a nice addition and you save some money on AC.
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It is odd how you become "familiar" with an environment. I remember in the old mainframe days in the Air force whe had to power down the mainfriame. The quiet was deffening. I suspect a breeze in the boats is along the same line.
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What's the latest on getting that money freed up for painting the boat?
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I am trying to attack this a little differently. As we do not have 200k in the bank with the Foundation, and no one can give me a satisfactory bid to complet the job, I am attacking this one step at a time. The first thing is to get the paint and soil tested. I could really use someone who knows how to do this and is willing to put ins some time for us. Once this is done we can start addressing the issue of what we have to do to dispose of the old paint.
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You've gotten bids for $200K? Wow. What happened to the $65K bid?
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Mark S.
The 65k was turned down by the sub vets. They determined that this was not a satisfactory long term solution for the boat. :tickedoff:
I am not sure why they are so resistant. The BMF wants to do it the long and hard way. I am anticipating this to be in the 160k to 200k by the time it is done.
Rick
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Roger that. Sounds like that they need to get on the ball to start raising money.
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One of the guys on the www.subsim.com forum that does a lot of mod work for the SHIV game did research into the paint schemes for fleet boats during the war. It turns out that for most of the war, a lot of boats were painted black (MS/9 paint scheme) and the fleet really didn't start using the black/gray late war patrol scheme (MS/32) until '44... even with the updated superstructures. Just more of a historical trivia note than anything. I like the late war scheme, personally.
Now, from the photos that I've seen of Batfish, she seems to have always had the two-tone paint job. I don't remember ever seeing any all-black Batfish photos.
Also, speaking of superstructure, it looks like she had her 40mm gun on the forward cigarette deck, instead of aft and vice versa for the 20mm - the 20mm didn't have any deflector plates, either. I don't expect us to move the guns, though. The original forward deck looked like it was bigger than our version/replica and it would be a lot of work to move them.
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Correction, MS/32 was available in mid-1943. However, a lot of the Balao boats left the yards with the MS/9 paint scheme, including Batfish. I think Becuna (SS-319) was the last boat to leave the yards with a black paint job in 1944.
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she had her 40mm gun on the forward cigarette deck, instead of aft
I've seen photos that have the BATFISH with 2 40mm's...I guess it's when the photo was taken.
Also, I've always been under the impression that the commanding officer had the say-so on where guns were mounted, including the deck gun.
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I have also been give the impression that the skipper could choose what ever he could appropriate (beg, borrow or steal) for his boat. It mostley depended on what was available. We have to remember that the country's industry reall did not kick into high gear until mid war, so things like deck guns were not readily available.
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All true.
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Got a quick question for anyone on here. What is with the circle that is on the bridge right behind the forward 20mm? It does not make sense as to why it would be there.
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Probably another ammo hatch. They might have kept a few drums of 20mm ammo in the CT. If they needed ammo at the last second, it would be fastest to pass it through the hatches. I'm guessing that a loaded 20mm drum is probably 25 - 30 lbs. each.
Similar idea with the deck guns. Keep some topside and pass the rest up, as needed.
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That is hard to say. this would go right into the Bridge area. the only hatch there would be the one going into the Conn.. I do not see anyone passing ammo up the con and onto the smoke deck. It would make more sense to pass it up from the control room throught he Bud Mobbs hatch I this come out on the port side just under the smoke deck) then to the 20 mm
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I've seen pictures of 30. cal MGs being stored in the CT with a few ammo boxes. But each sub probably did it to the captain's preference.
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Got a quick question for anyone on here. What is with the circle that is on the bridge right behind the forward 20mm? It does not make sense as to why it would be there.
It's an ammo locker. Look at this diagram:
http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/appendix/pages/figa-02.htm
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I see what you are talking about, but in the diagram, it is below the 20 mm, if it were below the 20 mm in the pic it would seem more plausible. The thing that gets me about it is that it is inset into the metal there, and it would have to be a really small locker there because the 20 mm gunner would constantly be bumping into it. Rick, can you take a look and see if there is any reminents (sp?) of this circle on the bridge?
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I've been up on the Batfish bridge enough times to know that there isn't any resemblance to a circle/hatch on that part of the structure. I believe that the Navy reworked a lot of the bridge when it became a training vessel. Not much use for AA and deck guns in the era of missiles and active sonar torpedoes. Like Rick said earlier, though, at least they didn't convert her in the GUPPY programs.
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I am including a few pics of the bridge area so you have a comparison. I still do not see anywere you can put a storage locker. You even get a real unique look at the coning tower without the deck blocking the view. Thanks to the redecking proc....
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If a hatch was installed on the forward part of the bridge (there is a U-shaped weld, now that I look at it), it wouldn't be a locker. Just a door. Some captains liked having their ammo nearby and were probably itching for a gun battle. It would be easier to pass ammo to the forward gunner through the forward hatch, if any ammo was being brought up from the CT. The rest would be passed up from the lower hatch from the crew's mess or con.
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So how is the Bridge deck coming along?
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the pic I posted earlier is were we are at. If you look close you can see that the support struts are missing. I will need to work Vaugh to replace them. He has not problem in doing that. I am waiting to see what Mark A has in store for him next I do not want to inindate anyonw with too much.
Mark A, What is on Vaughns do to list?
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Mark A, What is on Vaughns do to list?
All I know is that he is working on making those 40mm handles and is making the connecting rod for the port side gear boxes. On May 3rd, the plan is to have that all done and he is going to install all of that on the 40mm. We should, by the end of the day on the 3rd be able to move the gun by hand.
After that...I'm not sure what he has in store. I've talked to him about a new motor for the SJ mast...and maybe might have him look into the option of rigging out the bow planes. These two things are not set...just stuff we've talked about.
If you got something you need, go for it...all I need him for on the 3rd is a little bit of welding...maybe an hours worth of his time.
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Mark A
Thank you. I will turn him loose on the 40 mm to finish. Then I would like him to get the supports finished for the bridge area. He may be able to do this at the same time. We will see. I do not want to rush him. I think then we can go to rigging the dive planes...
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If you got him out there welding stuff, have him do foot holds, too, if it isn't too big of a bother. Obviously paint will have to be chipped to prep the metal and then it all needs to be primered.
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Then I would like him to get the supports finished for the bridge area.
Oh yes, that is more important by far...how could I have forgotten that...having to watch my step between the aft bridge and the CT hatch last Saturday.
The SJ motor and the bow planes were just ideas...the deck supports are a necessity.
As for foot holds, we should really hold off on that until we finish with the gun and the new deck on the bridge is put down. All we need is someone to climb up there and fling themselves into the hole made by the missing deck.
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True.
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You are right on. You all know how people can be. They are warned about the hazards of the boat, but they still do not listen.
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Well, now we found a use for the forward battery compartment. Loot and dump the fool-hardy visitors down there. :knuppel2:
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;D
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Would the vets and the board be opposed to cleaning up the really bad rust spots on the boat and hitting them with a fresh coat of gray primer? This will buy the boat a little more time until they finish arguing about sand-blasting it.