SUBMARINEMUSEUMS.ORG Forum
Individual Submarine Boards => USS Batfish (SS-310) => Topic started by: Lance Dean on August 09, 2009, 03:10:33 PM
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http://www.muskogeephoenix.com/local/local_story_220225752.html
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Yeah, the BLHA was happy to be part of the discovery. It was cool handling items that old and in such great condition - with a few exceptions. We don't think that any of it had been touched since it was decommissioned for the 2nd time in the late 50's. We have found a lot of preserved items/spare parts on the boat dated from the 50's.
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All credit goes to the BLHA Buys. They found them. I was busy playing politition.
Good times.
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OK - I am geting in on this topic very late. Also - sorry I haven't been around in awhile. Been a tough year.
SO - We need help identifying some of our finds and I hope you might help us. Here is a photo taken by our 1945 Life Magazine War Correspondent [Re-Enactor] Monte Wilson of www.wilsonartmedia.com. I need to identify the long four pronged piece in the photo. We are assuming it is used in loading torpedos (makes sense as we found it in a torpedo tube). But the four prongs would not have fit the curent torps we have onboard, including the cutie. Can you help idnetify it and how it would be used? This is one of two we have onboard. The other is in pristine shape.
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Here is another photo with a mystery piece. It looks real familiar but I just can't put my finger on it. The piece is a diamond shape [very heavy] with a hole on either end. The suggestion was made that it might be used in manually adjusting the dive planes or lowering/raising the anchor. Again, any help would be appreciated. Thanks again to Monte Wilson for the pics.
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And yet another. This image is of two of the same part. One has been exposed and has deteriorated pretty bad through the decades, the other we found in the tube and it is in PRISTINE condition. The protective covering really did a great job. We replaced most of the objects we took out back into the original tube so that they would stay protected. We took only a few to the museum. The Cutie sled was the real knockout. There was a second sled but it had been under all the pieces we discovered in the Starboard tube and had been crushed by their weight throuh the decades. The good thing is that we now have the pieces from which replicas could be made. I would love to find someone to volunteer for that ::)
So - what are these pieces?
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OK - last one for now.
We also noticed a cool find INSIDE the tube doors. If you will note inthe photo below, there is a painting of the Rising Sun Flag image on the inner door. At first we got excited as this painting was only on two of the original doors (tubes 1 and 2 doors being retrofitted in the 50's). Numbers 5 and 6 are below the waterline and the ground level. We were unable to open them as we believe the outer doors may be open preventing the inner from being opened. So we couldn't see their inner doors. Our reason for excitment was the question - what if these were the tubes used in the Three Japanese sub kills? But we found the same painting in all of the Aft tube doors too. Correy Twilley (our BLHA Skipper) believes he has seen paintings like this before but on the outside of the doors and they represented Japanese kills. By the way - the sailor in the image captured by Monte is fellow Re-Enactor, Travis Franklin. He really busted his ass on all of the finds. THANKS TRAVIS!
Comments?
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I've asked for ID help over on Rontini's BBS.
http://messdeck.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=14132
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R.T. Moore said:
"I think the objects in 6054.jpg are the lower swivel brackets for a deck gun barrel support."
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Bradlley thank you for posting these. I just got Monte's email last night and have not had a chance to work with it yet. Again, great job to all my volunteers including the BLHA guys.
Rick
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I believe the four prongred pusher was for the MK 18. we have two and test fitted one on an 18 at the Cavalla a couple of years ago. Your outer doors are most likely colsed, check the interlock levers. I imagine the sight glasses are dirty so you probably won't be able to tell if the tube is flooded, they are really hard to tell if tube is full. Our #5 tube was full and we couldn't tell. We found neat things in our tubes also, including the tube creeper which Lesley restored. Ours had a head rest on it. Have fun.
Tom
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Okay folks I can ID a couple of these pieces, thank god for HNSA and being on the Torsk for a while....
In the pic LaidOut6084. the first piece is of the Warhead cover for on/off loading, to the right at the base of that is a tube roller (which can be used as a lower mine table roller if needed) the long 4 pronged device is a home made after body attachment to load the weapons into the tubes. The flat pieces with threading on them may be apart of the tube drain mechanism. The busted up wooden cart is a tube dolly or cart or even called a creeper (TM's used it when cleaning the tubes) there are also pics of your weapons lashing straps now these have been kept in cosmoline packaging which tells me that they were never used and were in bench stock when the boat was decommed, the cool thing about a class of boats is that their torpedo lashing straps tend to be unique to that class and never change from the day she was built until the day she was decommed.
On Torsk our tube creeper has been on display in the tube since at least '01 with the tube cleaned and lit up so that the tourist's can see what normally only the TM's or Weapons Dept got to see.
Correy can you please send me detailed pics w/dimentions of the after body attachment so we can make one or two for the Torsk ;)
Darrin
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Please remember before trying to break the interlocks on your tubes make SURE that you open the vent valves and the drain valves for those tubes so that IF there is any water it can be properly drained before opening your tubes and if you are putting your finds back into the tubes PLEASE add dessicant into the tubes so they can take some if not all of the condensation out of the tubes if the vents are shut (recommended) and the drain/flood valves are kept shut.
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No need to break the interlocks, just get all valves and levers in the right position. Venting and draining the tubes takes all the fun out of it. We cracked the inner door and it started driping, then flew open and dumped a full tube of water. We went to get a sump pump and when we came back the water was all gone. found out the hatch to wrt leaked and it all drained where it was supposed to go any how. we had a good laugh.
Tom
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So we need to clean the tubes. never done it before. what/how would you reccomend it and we need to pull rollers from at least one but the rollers further in are encased in original grease and they are very difficult to pull out. the tube walls are pretty nasty looking and are showing a lot of greening/corrosion.
THANKS for the IDs on the mysterious pieces too!!
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Here are some other photos. One shows some small parts that we pulled from on eof the cosmoline batches. the parts look incredibly new. But what are they??
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The bottom pic is a realitively easy one to identify, that goes from the inner breech door to the weapon.. On Torsk we have the same cable just wrapped inside of the breech door waiting to hook a weapon or test set up to. The upper pic?? don't quite know what that one is of but IF I had to guess it is an adjustment tool but again I don't know for what.
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Cleaning the Torpedo Tubes.....
IF you are serious about opening a tube and putting it on display for the world to see you have a good bit of work that has to be done before you can get to that point especially if you have scaling/corrosion/green nasty stuff and yes a good bit of cosmoline in your rollers.
Where to start??
1. Is the tube going to be open for display which means you will need to light the tube.. Remember the tubes forward are 21' long and 21.125" in Diameter so that is a pretty descent distance that you have to light which means that white christmas lights don't work too well
2. Are you going to be loading a weapon into the tube for display? because if you are that makes life simple because the only thing you really have to do is clean the Breach Door (Bronze btw) and then get your rollers to work some what. And make sure that the stop bolt is in the load position and that your depth/course setting mechanism is not extended into the tubes.
So assuming that you are going to open a tube up for display and you are going to light it so that the tourist's can see all the way to the end where do you start.... The first place is at the Breach Door (AGAIN it is made of BRONZE) so you need to take care when cleaning it, a wire wheel on a drill works well but you need to be carefull not to burn anything into it due to the heat of grinding on it.
Once the Breach Door is clean and you are happy with it seal it with some petrolium jelly/grease.. The next step is to make sure that the vent valve is OPEN and you can put some air into the tube while you have a person in inside cleaning.... Make sure that when your person is cleaning the tube that they have a mask/resporator on while they are cleaning the tube because you may have to take the wire wheel/tooth brush inside the tube to clean the corrosion/barnacles/other debris off of the inside of the tube. And of course they need to have a good light with them when cleaning the tube for the first time, once your tubes are clean the process becomes relatively easy after that and requires less labor/maintenance.
IF you are able to use a pressure washer on the Batfish/whatever boat, something to remember is can you remove the water from the bilges?? because it may be easier to use a pressure washer to break the crud loose then going into the tubes with a wire wheel and grinding for a few hours. Make sure that IF you are using a pressure washer you have the angle on the boat so that the water WILL drain to the drain valve, this will ease in removing all the water/debris in the tubes as you go.
Once the decision is made about a pressure washer or a wire wheel you will need to start cleaning at the MUZZLE Door and work your way back to the Breach Door.. The reason behind this is that when you clean your tubes you want to be able to bring all of your trash/debris to the Breach door so it can be swept into a bucket or whatever you have.
Regardless which way you go it is going to be a few long days for the TM Division in regards to bringing the tube back to being presentable once more.
Again here is the link to the Torpedo Tubes section of the Fleet Submarine Manual... http://www.hnsa.org/doc/fleetsub/tubes/index.htm
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If you will note inthe photo below, there is a painting of the Rising Sun Flag image on the inner door. At first we got excited as this painting was only on two of the original doors (tubes 1 and 2 doors being retrofitted in the 50's). Numbers 5 and 6 are below the waterline and the ground level. We were unable to open them as we believe the outer doors may be open preventing the inner from being opened. So we couldn't see their inner doors. Our reason for excitment was the question - what if these were the tubes used in the Three Japanese sub kills? But we found the same painting in all of the Aft tube doors too.
I'm a little late on this, but I've been busy. As for the Rising Sun paintings, we found them years ago on a few tube doors, but like you we didn't open them all. To answer your question on tubes vs. kills...here is what I have:
Patrol 4, Attack 3, Tubes 7 & 8 - Destroyer Samidare
Patrol 6, Attack 3, Tube 2: RO-115
Patrol 6, Attack 4, Tubes 1, 2 and 3: RO-112
Patrol 6, Attack 5, Tube 7: RO-113
Note: On the RO-112, the torpedo from tube 1 hit and destroyed the Japanese sub, torpedoes from tubes 2 and 3 were believe to hit debris from the initial explosion.
Hope this helps,
Mark Allen
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:crazy2: I'm getting late on this also. :crazy2:
Cleaning a torpedo tube by hand is messy, lengthy, process. But the most important thing to keep in mind is that it requires a relatively thin person who is not afraid of very tight spaces. As Darrin said the tube is just a hair over 21" in diameter. So if you have a 38" waist you might be cramped just a bit. And if you use the creeper the space get a bit less for you to work in. Like Darrin says - start from the muzzle end so you can bring all the gunk out with you as you clean. Even with a respirator I sure like to have a fan or something to keep air circulating in the tube.
There's nothing prettier than 21" Submerged Torpedo Tube Mark 32 to 39 cleaned and open for inspection by your visitors. :smitten: But then I'm partial to things in the torpedo room anyway.
As a young torpedoman I weighed in at 137 lbs back in the old days - guess who did most of the cleaning and tube inspections? :buck2:
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Hi all!
I see I am also late on this convo...
As far as cleaning the tubes go, I imagine ill be the one doing most of it and GLADLY SO! The same day we made "the discovery" in the tubes I had snaked my way to the end of tubes 1 & 3 to pull the rollers, but like previously stated the grease inside the tubes has over the years, gathered in the bottom of the tubes and even better, all around the rollers making them danged hard to work with, especially in such cramped spaces.
Like John said, a fan would be nice as when I clambered out of the tube after about 20 min inside back in august i was literally dripping with sweat, ch when added to the massive amounts of grease makes a LOVELY coating of...well...something on clothing and skin which is near impossible to remove.
Cant wait to see the old girl again, been since early august. Might make a trip down this coming weekend.
Travis
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Travis - don't forget as you try to cut that grease you may start to get mild toxic fumes which is an major reason for the fans. Your body will block some of the air being blown into the tubes so you need a good volume of air being blown in.
You might want to see if you can blow some air in using some flex tubing - cloths dryer type is cheap and extends a long way. This way maybe you can get some additional air being blown past your body.
Gilly will cut that grease - of course ya just don't give up that much Gilly even for a torpedo tub. LOL
Good luck.
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As an old Machinist Mate, I wiegh in at 145 :2funny: and my prefered cleaning fluid is diesel fuel. It has a pleasent odor and will cut the tube grease or gunk real good. I definetly reccomend an air supply. Good luck and have fun.
Tom
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:buck2: I recommend a bit of diesel in your SOS and eggs. Yum!
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No, that is where you put gilley, Torpedo men always get it backwards. :idiot2:
Tom
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:D Well that goes without saying. But for true authentic diesel boat cooking you need a hint of diesel in your food and coffee! 8)
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I dove Tube #8 on the Torsk over the weekend trying to clean out all of the debris and junk from being flooded for 20+ years and having dessicant packs inside and other who in the he!! knows what.
Being the good TM that I thought I am, I had gotten out a protective suit and a mask and armed myself with a scraper and foxtail and in the tube I went.. Again knowing that there were some not so nice things in the tube that had not been cleaned since '71 I also made the point of having someone standing by to make sure that I was still breathing and moving :police: and I was glad because I had done so because the tube as you all recall is 22' long and partially full of desicant remains, barnacles and god only knows what and about 8' back from the Muzzle door he asked me if I was alright and I was still good to go and I got about half way back from the Muzzle (remember to start from the Muzzle to the Breech Door) when I asked him how far I was and was told my feet were about 8' from the Breech when I couldn't take it anymore and out of the tube I came.
Having problems breathing inside a torpedo tube is NOT a cool thing.... Remember I said that I was smart enough to have a safety standing by just in case ??? ???
He knew that I was having problems and as soon as my feet came out he was getting people topside to take care of me and to help me get the gunk cleaned off of me and to do first aid if needed. Once topside I litterally tried to throw up anything that I could while trying to get out of my gear as people started to come to my aid, while they could not due anything to help me they were there to wash the crud off of me and see if I needed to go to the hospital.
Note: while I was in protective gear and a mask, it was not a pressurized mask and that while it would have been combersome it would have been the safest option for me or whomever dove the tube. IF you have a tube that has the same issue and you are able to flood and drain the tube PLEASE do so because it will make the job of cleaning them that much easier and now I have to try to figure out if our musuem will let us do that once more so we can clean all of our tubes out the safe way.
Darrin
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I am certainly glad you got out OK. Important safety tip: It might be wise to see if you can get someone to do some air sampling prior to getting in. (I just thought of this because I certainly do not want to loose a fellow torpedoman.
If you are on a creeper it might be wise to tie a safety rope onto the creeper so someone can pull you out. Darrin was lucky, but I think he was close enough to the breech end that someone could have grabbed his legs. :coolsmiley:
You might want to have a bucket or two of fresh water handy just in case someone needs to wash off when they come out.
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Thanks John for the concern 8)
One BIG thing to remember is when you have someone in a CONFINED space make sure they know and understand what saftey precautions need to be addressed prior to them entering ANY confined space, please do not send someone into a confined space that is unsure if they can do the job or not because IF they panic inside the tube or where ever it could be disasterous.
Warning signs that you maybe in trouble while in a confined space:
1.) Shortness of breath
2.) Loosing comprehension of distance from the entrance/exit
3.) Feeling like the space is closing in on you when it can't
And like John said, I was close enough for someone to come to my aid if necessary, fortunately that was not needed.
Side note: Knowing the warning signs that you are in trouble can and will save your life in a situation like because they are easy to overlook as you try just to "tough it out" and get the job done so that no one else has to go back and finish the job.
Am I sorry that I stopped half way out of the tube and got the heck out of there??? NOPE, my life is more important to me then cleaning a torpedo tube one more time so that it can be used for storage or as a display later down the road. Maybe later if I get the tube flooded I will go back in and clean the tube again but who knows if or when that will happen.
Darrin
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:coolsmiley: Darrin you are more important than a clean torpedo tube - so again I glad you got out in time.!
Dumb thought - I do this on occasions - squeegees - do you think you could fashion some sort of scraper then put together enough plastic conduit to reach 22 feet. Each conduit piece should be attached using a threaded coupling so you can work your way back and forth as needed without having to handle a 22' plus handle. Then snake to the front of the tube with the squeegee standing on end. When you get to the end twist to let the squeegee drop down in place and just pull out.
OK I'm not sure what all you are trying to get out of the tubes - the above is intended to pull out a lot of debris and water.
This might be safer than having Darrin or someone else crawling around inside the tube. Why didn't the Navy invent a little robot guy to clean torpedo tubes. You know some thing like Wall-E! :coolsmiley:
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Here's the thing John, we needed the tube space to store some aluminum storage lockers that used to fit in the tubes and on the stow's and the only tubes that we currently have serviced for that is Tube#7 which has a Mk 27 hanging out of it and Tube #2 which is on display and all lit up. So as more stuff appears from various different things we have done over the years (strip ships and parts acquisitions) that have been stored at people's houses who are cleaning out their stuff in prep for retirement or they have just gotten tired of looking at it.
Yes you can put a scrapper on a pole and push it down the tube and a small push broom to get the big chunks out so that someone can go back in the tube a little safer, I still prefer to flood the tube and have brought that up to the staff and they are going to address the issue to the museum heads.
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Flooding would be easier for you for sure and safer 8) I'd rather clean bilges than get into a tube these days. :2funny:
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I would also rather have a nasty bilge then a nasty torpedo tube because I can almost always find someone willing to dive a bilge :2funny:
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:crazy2: Shop Vac! and a warm body and you have clean bilges :crazy2:
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Please make sure there is plenty of ventilation! Mud, rust, etc. eat OXYGEN! This is a confined space entry issue. So if you crack open a tube, get a fan, blower, etc., and ventilate it, especially if someone is inside with cleaning products. Be safe!
:smitten:
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After reading this post I still can't get one thing out of my head. I'm the smallest adult volunteer....
I wonder what I get to look forward to helping on after the deck is done ;D
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Wesley,
at 6'3" and 230# I am one of the largest volunteers the Torsk has and I have been in some very tight places and made it alright :2funny: Cleaning the torpedo tubes tends to be a LOT of fun if they are not full of 30+ year old crud. Enjoy whatever job that they give you for those whom volunteer on our museum boats are saving history
Darrin
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I enjoy it or I wouldn't keep coming back :P
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SO after 3 something years since this post started has anyone been BRAVE enough to dive the tubes and clean them out? because it sounds like you have a new volunteer that may want to try to spear head that evolution
Darrin
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hehe....mark would deffintly have me clean out the tubes..im the shortest and skinnyest adult XD.
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I would like to dig out the bow some more and see what we're dealing with on the outside, before we make another attempt at opening tubes 5 and 6 from the inside. We're also long overdue digging out the rudder and stern planes.
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Just say when Mark/Rick and I'll bring out the back-hoes and the dozer.
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Rick doesn't view these boards much. So, any work proposals should actually be written up in a Word document and then sent to Rick with Mark Allen CC'd. It doesn't have to look like an official job proposal, but the more details that it has, the better.
My only concern with using heavy machinery is hitting the boat while digging. We would have to take it nice and slow. Probably bring out a large piece of rebar and "feel" for how deep the stern planes are before removing dirt. I'm just really afraid at what we will or won't find. "Are you sure this boat had stern planes?"
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Shouldn't be a problem Mark, its my equipment. ;)
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Cool. I'm tied up for the next 6 weekends, but starting in April I will be a lot more available. I would like to be there when the stern gets unearthed.
A pressure washer will be necessary, as well, once the bulk of the dirt has been removed.
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Gentlemen and I use that term looosely :2funny:
The COD had a diver do a hull survey and record his findings, it is on youtube somewhere... seeing how Batfish is setting in sand and mud that means that the stern planes will most certainly be soaked and rotting, when you uncover them you will need to start preserving them immediatly. Also look at the Drum as her's are still on and well documented and if you can find it you can see the Torsk's when she went into the shipyard a year or so ago
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The planes are still there. Blackwing and I had an extensive conversation on this topic. It looks like we may be moving forward with this. As time and resources present themselves I would look for more improvements at we move forward.
Rick