SUBMARINEMUSEUMS.ORG Forum
General Boards => Museum Submarine Discussion => Topic started by: Ctwilley on October 07, 2008, 01:56:35 PM
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We've been discussing the possibility of restoring the Batfish's lower psi air systems. Has anyone done any work on this system and do you have any tips on getting it back up and running? One thing we discussed was tapping into the system in each room with a QD or two for the quick attachment of hoses for pneumatic tools. That would certainly make maintenance easier.
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Based on the current School of the Boat discussions, some boats do have low pressure air operating.
Here's the link to the air systems chapters in the Fleet Boat manual. You'll quickly notice that there is a lot of plumbing involved, including topside ports. Lots of places for the sytem to spring a leak... http://www.hnsa.org/doc/fleetsub/air/index.htm
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Yeah I have the manual but I was wondering if anyone has any experiance that might come in handy. There's no need to reinvent the wheel.
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Oh, my bad. Yeah, it would be nice if someone told us to just hook up a 100 psi air compressor to the blah bllah blah line in such and such compartment to get low pressure air service throughout the boat. My idea is to tie into one of the blower lines in the pump room, but I may be wrong.
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Yes Torsk has her air systems up and running and we tied into the air lines at thehead in after battery and then slowly brought ALL of the air banks back up. Our air compressor is located in the LLAB and it is capable of 150 PSI intermittantly and we have 2 TOPSIDE that are capable of 175 PSI sustainable 24/7, those are going to be tied into one the Salvage Air connections topside and then back feed the whole boat. When restoring your air systems ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS check your gauges out first and then take your valves off of the air header and remove the blanking plate that is in it. Once you pressurize your first air bank do it SLOWLY and in small incriments, 20 PSI at a time and let it set and see how much leakage you have in your system prior to going any farther (when we brought ours back up it was 20 psi at a time and then let it set for 20 minutes before moving on) you may want to clean your filters in that air system prior to putting air in it for the first time. When you drain the air out of the air banks it bleeds INBOARD so be forewarned that those tanks have preservatives in them to keep them from rusting too badly so it will stink like hell and you will need to ventilate the compartment depending on how bad it gets (not worried about the smell it is the other gasses you need to worry about)
Biggest thing that I FORGOT to tell you in the beginning is that you HAVE to do a hand over hand inspection of that system when possible before you put any air into it, that will save you some time and troubleshooting, that and they you can draw out YOUR boat's schematics... OR if you can find someone's qual drawings from your boat just go back and hand over hand the whole system to make sure that it is all intact
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Our current air compressor is running through the 225 PSI line at the bulkhead at the after battery head, it is the compartment bleed air for the salvage air system at the gauge. Please put in a "T" valve and then add a quick disconnect and the gauge back on so you will be able to slowly bring the air system back on line. It is further recommended that you do 20 PSI one week and then check it the following week instead of 20 psi every 20 min
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Darrin is mostly correct above. The compressor in LLAB is a DEVILBIS 65Gal 6.5 peak hp unit. It develops 125 psi. it has been adjusted to get 135MAX. Tie it in to the compartment Salvage air line at the engine room/AB bulkhead.
Having been involved with the 225# system since we 1st got the compressor in 1999, got a few suggestions.
1.) Regardless of whether you have qual drawings or not, DO A HAND OVER HAND and TAG the LINE in 2 places in each compartment (225psi header). Make detailed drawings for maintenance, and a not so detailed drawing for operation.
2.) Work one (1) bank to full operation at a time. You WILL have to open all joints and replace the square cut O-rings. Also overhaul the particulate filter for each bank.(it's in a different place for each bank.)
3.) DO NOT go thru the 225# reducer as you will not have the psi to do so. This reducer takes 600# and reduces to 225# for the system. DO use the 225# Reducer bypass as your entry and exit point to and from the manifold.
4.) DO NOT bring the bank up to system pressure as soon as you get the bank and the lines tight. The banks have not been hydro'ed for at least 40 years. Bring the bank up in 20-25# stages per week. Once you get to 100# stretch it out to 2 weeks per increment.
5.) DO Overhaul the GAUGE LINE VALVES on the manifold. These have a NASTY Tendency to leak. And they are on the Bank side of the manifold so they get bank pressure all the time.
Example: Say you want #3 bank working. Open the following valves in order. #3 Bank, Cross Connect#1(Fwd Stack of valves), Cross Connect #2(Aft stack of valves), 225# Reducer bypass. Now you should have air in the 225# system by the gauge on the board. NOTE: There is a dump valve on the bottom of the manifold connected to the cross-connect which is part of the 3000# ship HP AIR system. Left to right facing the manifold: HP AIR FWD, DUMP(Exhaust valve), HP AIR AFT, Dockside Charging. (I may have the last two reversed, your ship qual drawings will tell you).
To Get #6 working, you open #6 Bank, and the 225# reducer bypass.
To shut down the system just reverse procedure and blow it down using the dump valve on the hp manifold.
The 65gal compressor will bring up a bank in 4-5 hours to 125#. That is constant running. Break in the compressor for the 1st year or so according to the manufacturer spec (usually 15 on / 15 off). Put a 12" fan close (standard Navy Compartment fan)to the pump and run it on high to help keep the pump cooler. Change the oil once a month for the 1st year using straight 30WEIGHT NON DETERGENT OIL. After that 4 times a year or when ever it gets dirty. Check level frequently.
Size: The 65Gal was a gold plated bitch to get in the boat :tickedoff:. we had to remove the AB Ladder and mounts. and the airlock door into the crews berthing are from the mess. A smaller tanked compressor with a large pump will suffice as you will be using the banks as storage volume. If you just have a pump with motor, you can tie it directly into the compartment Salvage air line @ the FER/AB Bulkhead. Use a "T" and a valve between the 225# system and the compressor.
The topside air (horn and tools line) hull valve should be in the overhead in control, STBD side, over the edge of the NAV Table. It will be a hull stop with a drain line and valve on the drain line. If someone is on the bridge you can scare the beejesus out of the river traffic, touristas, :2funny: or just run air tools topside.
Now get cracking DINK!!! :police: :laugh:
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Thanks Doc for the assist on that
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...and we come to the reason for this forum. Man, you guys just saved us countless hours of guessing and wondering. :)
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I folowed most of what you are saying, but it wouldn't hurt to have a qual'd vet to give us a hand in person.
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Mark,
the best thing to do is hand over hand the system to verify integrity and then use your qual drawings if you have any from a former crewmember and reverify that nothing has changed somewhere in the boat's lifetime and then open up the fleet submarine manual to the air systems chapter and study,study study how they are put together and how to rebuild them if needed.
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That's what we're going to have to do. I think one of our frequent vets is a machinist mate, but he doesn't get to the boat very often.
I would like to see a few pictures of your compressor connection. I have a pretty good idea of which line and gauge that you are referring to, but a few pics go a long way.
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As soon as I get the stainless project done, I'm going to study up on our air system. I think that this is doeable and would be a good thing to have for future projects. Rick, instead of getting a smaller perminant air compressor, what if we just held out and got a larger one for installation?
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By the way, several people are confusing the LP blow system with the LP air system. The blower is used only for blowing the ballast tanks when near or on the surface. THe LP air system reduces air from the HP air system and uses it for a number of purposes.
Unless they have been removed, the oats have pneumatic tool connections (quick connect and disconnect) in each compartment. These air connections are off the service air header. Look around in the compartments and you should find at least one per.
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That makes sense.
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None come to mind, but that doesn't mean that they aren't there. They may have bene capped off.
That's a good point about the LP Blower in the pump room. That explains why you guys picked a head to backfeed the system with a compressor instead of the pump room. Although, if we find an air tool connection down there, that would probably be a better place to put the compressor.
One thing for us to keep in mind is that Rick shuts the power off at night and on Monday and Tuesday. So, the compressor would not be keeping the system charged all the time.
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It would probably be one of the systems that we only brought online during an event or work day. It probably wouldn't be feasable to keep it up all the time.
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boy this is getting to be fun. I come down like God to place commandment upon my loyal and trusty followers. :angel:
1. Thou shalt receive the smaller compressor. This compressor is being doanted by a lovely widow and mother of veterains. If we need a large compressor will will be looing at a fund raising project to which I am not against having both. The small will allow us to have a compressor on ste until a larger system can be established and we will have a secondary on site to work on the external displays to which there will be many...
2. Thou shalt document, document, document. This is another system that will requre proper training to use. I do not want you all to go to all the troble to put this together and have it botched up by a wayward person.
3. Thou Shalt conservest power. I agree that this system shoudl not be charged unless we are using it. I can just imagin some jokester playing with one of the valves and generating a permanent air leak for all the tourist to enjoy. Alos this does prove to be somewhat of a safty issue to have it presurized permanently. I think a seperate cerciut to provide power to the compressors would be a good thing. just like we are discussing for the Galley.
4. Thou Shalt not commint any harm upon thyselves. Seriously. be careful. We are dealing with a 65 year old system that has not been checked since 1969. I do not want any injuries.
As usual, this subject is open to discussion...
rick
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When we first go to test the system, we will need to keep it charged over a period weeks along the methods that were spelled out in previous posts by the Torsk guys. As far as I know all control valve handles can be removed in the con when they are not being used. This should eliminate any tampering by visitors. Keeping the heads closed would help, too. If they find a random valve in another compartment, the hissing should be obvious. This is one of those things where you would have to walk through the boat after closing time each day to listen for any [failed of visitor caused] leaks - kill the A/C, first. Once the system has been tested out and proven that it can handle the max pressure from the donated compressor, then I agree that it can be left off until we really need it. It sounds like 4 to 5 hours would be needed to get the system fully charged. If we're going to have a work day or event, we could turn it on the day before at closing time and just let it charge all night.
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You know, we need to have a single seperate breaker box since the public can't be allowed to energize the galley, air compressors, pumps, and any other wigit or gizmo that we get working. None of the systems that we restore can or even will be used on a daily basis so we might want to limit all of these with a lockable breaker box that has all of the various switches.
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Again, we need to figure this wireing system out.
rick
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Hand over hand and or a nice tone generator have done wonders with figuring some of ours out, our galley and pumps have had the fuses removed and tagged out so there isn't any inadverdant useage. The Air Compressor is in LLAB and it stays locked unless the volunteers are onboard and we as far as I know are the only ones who operate it
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You know guys, maybe we should make the electrics our next project before the air system. Rick has a point. It's a huge task but if we can get it done, we'll be able to slowly bring all of these items up a lot easier than if we're trying to figure out why the compressor won't turn on. The movie Christmas Vacation comes to mind. We could spend months putting together all of these systems to find that they won't work. Then someone turns on the fan in the ward room and everything comes on at once.
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here Kitty kitty kitty........ ;D
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When we first go to test the system, we will need to keep it charged over a period weeks along the methods that were spelled out in previous posts by the Torsk guys.
Remember a couple of things here. Unless your valves have hammer handles, you should have a special wrench to open the banks. The 225# system MUST NOT be energized (air from the banks or a compressor) while no one (vols/management) is aboard. Unless the touristas are carrying a wrench (12" cresent) then they aren't gonna energize the system. Just keep the banks shut when not using them. You could also put "DANGER" tags on the valves themselves. Tends to keep prying hands away.
1.) Attach the small compressor to a Q.D. in one of the Torpedo rooms. Bring the pressure up in the header line ONLY, SLOWLY! Check all the, Salvage air Valves, these are on both sides of the W.T. bulkhead although the air line is on one side only. (chain them down in centered posit. so they can't turn). There should be a valve with a drain in the AER STBD Side, outboard of the Genset. It's for the compensating tank or the (I can't remember the other one). Also on TORSK there is an emergency engine shutdown valve over the STBD Controllerman's posit. that runs off the 225# system. As your's is a center cubicle, and DOESN'T have a snorkel, you may NOT have this particular set-up.
2.) The 225# system ALSO charges the IMPULSE AIR BANKS in the Torpsedo rooms. Double check that the inlet valve in both rooms is SHUT, Locked and Tagged BEFORE initial lite off.
3.) The Q.D.'s are usually near the ends of the compartments. Torpedo room it's near the Impulse air manifold on STBD Side. In Control it's above the manifold that has the control valves for 225# FWD, and AFT, #1 Aux, #2 Aux, Safety Blow. Engine Rooms are outboard the STBD Side engines FWD. Maneuvering should be near the Lathe Position(not sure for single cube boat).
4.) Topside you should have a hull stop in the Control room just above the Nav Table. This covers the Ships Whistle, and 1-possibly 2 Q.D.'s on either side of the fairwater, near the teardrop shape hole(which is where the dockside HP charging air connection is.
5.) Once you prove out the header, Compartment Salvage Air Valves, and associated Q.D.'s are tight and working correctly (includes the main gauge for 2225# air on the Main air gauge board). Then you can use the header for tools. You can isolate the banks from the header, by 2-3 valves and work on them while having the compressor work the header directly.
The setup on TORSK is different than Batfish. Pictures show what we did. But you will have to physically hand over hand your system to prove it out and rule out any problems.
WATCH OUT FOR PRESERVATIVE in the LINES!!! :o It will SPRAY all over if you're not careful. Take a hose on the end of the system and valve it. Build up 50#. Open the valve into a semi closed bucket and run the compressor for 20 minutes or so to get as much as you can out of the main header. You may have to open each Compt. Salv. Air Valve to get out the pockets of preservative in the side lines. Wear Ponchos!!!
Then work on each bank in turn. Start from the manifold, and open each connection in turn, refresh the o-rings, and button each connection up. Take each hull stop off and tear it down, repack the stem, lap the seat if needed, and put in new o-rings. Once you get it all buttoned up, then test the bank. Again do one bank at a time.
Another + is that the water system runs off air pressure. Up to you guys whether you want to get into that.
Doc
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Thanks Doc for stepping up to the plate and helping the Batfish out, I appreciate it ;)
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Having a good understanding of your electrical system sure would be a good idea! We spent a couple of years tracing out the original ship's electrical distribution systems and then we documented everything. It was just like making qual drawings, but more detailed. This helps us no to figure out where equipment receives its power and where to find blown fuses, which occurs regularly. Someone is always wanting to plug in a grinder, two drills, a power saw, etc etc to the same circuit.
We also completely replaced our shore power electrical system because it was totally inadequate once we began the true restoration of the boat. The original shore power system was fine when all it had to power was the temporary lighting that was strung through the boat.
The key, though, is documenting. Make drawings and document any changes you make to the original ship's wiring.
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Chief,
ya did good but you missed one point.... THE KEY TO RESTORING ANYTHING IS TO DOCUMENT EVERYTHING AS YOU GO SO THAT EVERYONE THAT COMES AFTER YOU WILL KNOW what you did while you were onboard so that they don't have to make the same mistakes that we made...
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Chief,
ya did good but you missed one point.... THE KEY TO RESTORING ANYTHING IS TO DOCUMENT EVERYTHING AS YOU GO SO THAT EVERYONE THAT COMES AFTER YOU WILL KNOW what you did while you were onboard so that they don't have to make the same mistakes that we made...
Having a good understanding of your electrical system sure would be a good idea! We spent a couple of years tracing out the original ship's electrical distribution systems and then we documented everything. It was just like making qual drawings, but more detailed. This helps us no to figure out where equipment receives its power and where to find blown fuses, which occurs regularly. Someone is always wanting to plug in a grinder, two drills, a power saw, etc etc to the same circuit.
We also completely replaced our shore power electrical system because it was totally inadequate once we began the true restoration of the boat. The original shore power system was fine when all it had to power was the temporary lighting that was strung through the boat.
The key, though, is documenting. Make drawings and document any changes you make to the original ship's wiring.
Thank you both. BZ's to for each. I cannot tell you how frustrating it is to sit down at a project ans say were are the Procedures, Technical Drawings, or how does this work and all you get is funny looks.
For my guys. Document, Document, Document......
and did I mention Document.......
Rick