SUBMARINEMUSEUMS.ORG Forum
General Boards => Museum Submarine Discussion => Topic started by: Viejo on June 13, 2008, 05:16:31 AM
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I recently saw a 60 day chart of money coming in to USSVI for the different parts of our Charitable Fund. I won't copy it all here, but those of you who are associated with base/chapters in USSVI, might want to alert other members about what is a long term trend and getting worse of giving almost all money to scholarships, so some granddaughter of a member can have a few bucks for college. Here is the url. Anyone can read on this Base Officers BBS and most anyone that wanted to post and was a member of USSVI could probably be allowed to. What makes it even worse is that USSVI is in the process of going after some big bucks from people and the greatest majority of that will be going to the scholarship fund. Right now about $50,000 every year comes in for scholarships. Less than $500 for Museum Boats and Memorials and most of that goes to Memorials. You guys that are members of USSVI need to encourage your base officers to read and post here. And convince them to say something about this.
Here is the url
Bill :'(
http://www.baseofficerbb.us/BBS/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=632&posts=5
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:o
Stickied this topic.
I really have no authority to even speak on this subject, but I agree with you 100% Bill. The scholarship fund was always a HUGE priority for the USSVWWII, maybe that is why it's so big in the USSVI today? I think with some awareness the priority could be shifted easily. It is all about majority rules.
Thanks Bill.
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Wow, $50K a year? That would provide two boats with some big help... or one boat could get painted and sandblasted over an 18-month period... etc., etc. It might also provide shipping for 7-ton guns, paint, new decking materials, replication of builder's plaques (had to get my own idea in), fabrication of bunks, bunk bags, etc., etc., etc., (God, I love "The King and I" -- but you know, the SVWWII never did anything with real benefit to the memorial boats, and so far, USSVI hasn't either. I will not hold my breath over this issue.
But someone should go to the annual meeting and make a request for a straw pole!
:-X
PF
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I shouldn't say this, but I am in a contancarous mood today and will.
It seems to me that most of the old sub vets got these subs for their own personal play grounds. They had this big idea that the would be able to take an old boat and plop id down somewere and the masses would pay hand over fist to come and see it and the various sub org's would make loads of money so they can continue to have their conventions and what not. However as time moved on and the sub vets started to disapear the the club houses became just what they were. An exclusive club for a dwindiling membership left to be neglected for all time.
Whit that siad. The subvets did give us a wonderful treasure that everyone should share. There is interest out there and these places can be real money makers. We (subvets and care takers) all have to realize that times are changing. People are not so quick to join exclusive fraternities andymore. Most people in their 30's do not have the time and money to be running all over the country just to hang out wiht Joe Smith that served on my boat back the same I did. Though this is nice, times are hard and we cannot afford these luxuries.
The long and the short of it is that the USSVI needs to decide if the subs are what they really want to invest in. If not get out and leave us (the care takers alone). If they do want to be involved start putting up some effort (money, time, materials) and lets us (the care takers) make these things fly.
This is just one mans oppinion and I do not mean to disrespect our subvets. I cannot thank them enough for what they did. This goes for the past and the present sub vets both. I have full intentions of attending the convention in Fort Worth this year. We (the boats) have an open invite to help with the submarine museums booth. I think we all need to take part. If we want to the USSVI to start taking us seriously we need to do this and make it an every year deal.
Thank you for listening.
If you agree feel free to contact me Rick Dennis....
If you do not agree. Lance Dean will be happy to take your complaints..... ;D
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Yea, one of the hardest things to deal with in this business is the fact that the submarine veterans are my heroes. But sometimes you have to ask them to put a sock in it and get out of the way. :-* -- so that we can do our job and make sure the memorial boats tell their story! Kinda ironic, to say the least.
As an organization, the USSVI, IMHO, needs to decide once and for all if they want to benefit the memorial boats in a significant way, or clam-up and play at being sub vets -- status quo. Until that happens, my snappiest salute will be to Tin Can Sailors Association, then to DESA (a distant second).
Going deeeeeep!
PF
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Paul,
you don't have to go deep on that one, hell run a "full on 4" bell and enjoy the scenery topside as the Fairbanks/Morse LOVE to be run hard.. I was a member of USSVI until I got out in '94 and the only thing that they ever wanted from me was money, money for this and that and when I told the rep that I was getting out before the Submarine Ball he still asked me for money so someone else could go in my place if I couldn't make it back to Pearl in time...
What I have seen and heard from a few different museums is that USSVI doesn't want to work on the boats they just want to tell old sea stories and if they are lucky on or two of their members will volunteer at a local museum submarine and stay there..
To me I would rather donate my money to a boat that is in need then some organization that is built on remembering our submarine heritage but has no use in restoring our heritage..
Me... I am running all ahead 1/3 on the surface on this issue and there isn't anyone that will change my mind, many have tried but none have convinced me to return.
Darrin
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Seems like a lot of submarine veteran bashing is going on. I understand that a lot of it is directed at the USSVI, but I also hear a lot of bashing toward submarine vets in general. The Torsk, which was left to deteriorate for many, many years by the civilian operators in Baltimore, has been completely turned around by a group consisting of many sub vets and several sub lovers. We have done this with a lot of blood, sweat and tears. Our local USSVI base has contributed to the cause as have several other sub bases around the country. So, where you may be correct that your local efforts are not aided by and possibly interfered with by some sub vets, please speak for yourselves. Without sub vets, Torsk would still be a dark, empty tube preparing to sink into the inner harbor of Baltimore.
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emeacho,
Thanks for your defense of subvets and the organization. I debated when I put up the first post on this subject if it wouldn't draw some negative comments about USSVI from some. However, I wanted to encourage you guys who do work with both the boats and USSVI to let your bases, DCs, and so forth know that we need to put more importance on the museum boats when we are considering where to spend money. I hoped that explaining how we need to shift the empasis of where the money is going would not be construed as encouraging others to bash USSVI.
It is very easy for those who aren't members and those who only look at isolated incidents to assume that the organization is not for this or that. The truth is that USSVI has to be very careful when it approaches anything like the museum boats, because they do have no say in what goes on with them and also the national organization doesn't get involved with what a base does on the local level unless they are asked to help out.
The Pampanito is a good example of where we actually have National officers trying to work things out and help out with those running the boat and then have others who don't undersand everything involved complaining and causing the problems.
Each boat has a different relationship with those subvets around, but I think most all of them like to have people come help out who are there for that purpose and not to try and decide how things should be run. Certainly the Torsk, Drum, Batfish, Cavalla, Cod, and others have used and want to have subvets around. The Pampanito has some who help out and they are appreciated. Same with the Silversides and in the past the Growler. As you guys work more together and show how that can help all with thier boats, hopefully we'll get some of these other museum boats to start posting here and gaining from this site.
You are exactly right that what is always wrong is to make generalized statements against some group and this is usually done by those who haven't taken the time to really get to know the group.
The whole reason this forum is here is because one guy who had a love for subs and wanted to help out, put in countless hours getting these pages up and running and getting people involved in using these pages. He is one of the most valued members of his USSVI LIB Base and we fully support him and what he is doing as we do all museum boats. I happen to also be on the national board of USSVCF which is not at all important in itself, but it does mean that I can look at things from some different levels and knowledge at times.
So anything we as an organization can do to help, please let me know and I'll try and get it done. And thanks for your comments to show where responsibillity really needs to lie.
Viejo
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I for one am not basing USSVI...
I've been trying to offer some constructive criticism on how an organization that says it is dedicated to preserving its heritage, can do so in what I think is a very effective manner. USSVI is a bunch of people... and people are not perfect. No one on the staff of submarine memorials (be they paid in cash or paid in self satisfaction) wants the vets out of the picture. But the sad fact is, the revese is not true!!! I have been told many times by several subvets that they do not like the fact that "their boats" are in the hands of civilians who have no military experice!!!!! Now I understand this is not a universal attitude, but it is prevelent across the nation and has gone on for decades!
And to clarify a point about the TORSK... it was run in the 1970s by a WWII subvet who was employed by a department of the city. He had no knowledge of historical preservation and saw the boat as a veteran's clubhouse and children's fun activity. When he retired, the city (rightly) turned it over to an outfit that ran maritime education programs. To give her in the City Parks department would have been criminal.
The truth of the matter is that over the decades that submarines have been in the hands of memorial foundations (DRUM was first, in 1969, I believe), there was generally no problems as long as the Vets could hold functions aboard the boats... Silversides was the first, and for a long time, only boat that had a group interested in restoring her. They were a mix of sub vets and a few civilians. And they did good -- getting her engines running, etc. But they were a club house operation. When the need for proper management surfaced, they were not able to handle it and so SS 236 was turned over to new, civilian management.
You can break up the subs into several basic categories:
1. boats that are part of a multi-ship park. -- Problem: the subs get the short end of the funding stick. Vets hold functions aboard, but see them deteriorating.
2. boats that are part of an educational facility (science center/maritime museum), like Pampanito, Blueback, Requin, Becuna, Cobia, U-505. -- Problem: again, they have to compete for funding, often the funds they are generating. Benefits: when they do get attention of a curator or manager, they make important strides (Pampanito and Cobia are good examples)... Vets are honored and perform ceremonies, but work is done within a framework set by the stewards. And interest and ability among the staff is more important than whether the person wears "phins." This has sometimes been a cause of friction. Not always, but sometimes.
3. transitional boats -- boats that were "saved" by veterans groups, but ultimately failed for various reasons and were transferred to other stewards: Requin, Cavalla, Croaker are chief among these. Most were heart-breaks until they came under new management, one still is.
4. single memorial boats -- Albacore, Cod, Razorback, Batfish, Ling. Include the best and worst boats, generally. When run as businesses and national treasures they thrive. When run as veterans clubhouses, they fail. Can't speak for all, but many in this class have had to set subvet groups straight about which is the dog, and which is the tail (as in the tail should not wag the dog).
Enough of the categorization.
I can speak directly about COD.
We went through several phases and I have been there for all of them, from the start (1976)
... the first was when our civilian leadership (acutally a composite of submarine vet officers and civilians) let a group of local Subvet WWII run the daily operation for them... Cod was a subvet clubhouse. She deteriorated badly (well not as bad as some since we were in fresh water, thankfully). Volunteers were told to go away, this was a subvet operation only. When subvets showed up to help, they were often told they were not needed (seen as threats by the subvet shipkeepers)...
Phase two: Thanks to several factors, including HNSA and my divorce :buck2:, Cod begins to adpot curatorial standards and the transition begins from things being done on a whim by subvets to being done to follow a master plan of restoration. Call this phase: World War THREE!!! Yes, it was ugly and sad.
Frustration at stratoshperic levels as the subvet ship keepers actually sabotaged work done by civilians. Again,this was not a SubVet sanctioned vendetta, but rather a clash of people, individuals, and a lack of complete leadership from above. Cod saw more combat during this phase than at any time since 1944!
Time, old age, and persistence won out. Not results! Visitors would commend the shipkeepers on the improvement to Cod and they would grumble and try to erase them when they had the chance! To those who say I'm a hot-blooded Scicilian, I say, I didn't kill anyone! :knuppel2: Again, some challenging moments. But during this time a few civilian volunteers began to come forward to help the lone civilian crewmember (me).
Phase three: today, everyone understands that stewardship of the boat is in civilian hands and under the direction of a curator. The subvets of WWII are not happy (as a group) with the fact that they do not run the boat. Non-dolphin crewmembers skyrocket (hey when you go from one to 10, that's a skyrocket). More work gets done than at any other time. USSVI Cod Base was formed. Among them are a few WWII vets -- some WWII and younger vets have a hard time accepting the fact that non-qual non-military types run the boat. Again, its a matter of personalities... some are ok with things, others find it makes them mad... I've been dealing with bad subvet attitudes for 32 years... and I've been blessed with the friendship of subvets with good attitudes... but sadly, a human generally has a more dramatic reaction to getting hit with baseball bats for 32 years than getting kisses! I still have a tendency to cringe among subvets and prepare to defend myself. That's my problem... just explaining things in the hopes that it might be helpful to others and cathardic to me!
PF
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Folks,
While I am ABSOLUTELY guilty for bashing USSVI for many many years it is time for me to lay down the hatchet, because in part of efforts of Don Gentry, Ron Martini, Chief Mike, John Bay and many many others to include the crew members of Torsk and these bbs's that we have called home for a number of years.. Have I done harm to USSVI and to it's image??? maybe and for many years I did not care especially when I started working on Torsk and there for a while I didn't know that we had that many USSVI folks onboard as we do and I guess will always feel like they are not represented well on these boats and that still hurts, but not as much as when I hear about other boats who have asked for help and got little response for help. With that being said I can not blame those who are apart of USSVI and not wanting to go and field day a submarine that they didn't serve on let alone one that has been left to rot for many years.
The task of restoring Torsk has been a daunting task that has been taken on by a great crew that while it has changed a little over the years we still have the same drive and motivation of when TVA started 10 years ago and now things come in leaps and bounds instead of small victories that we now take for granted, I should mention that from what I was told when TVA took over that there was no power running through her wiring and there were drop lights strung throughout the boat and the A/C or what they used for A/C and heat was laughable. Now most of the boat runs the way that it is supposed to work though the correct wiring and that alone is a true testimate to Chief Mike and to Dave Thames and others who have spent more hours then I would like to count in getting her back in order.
Am I going to stop bashing USSVI?? yes... VIEJO if you would can you please send me the paperwork to join LIB?? I know now that it is time to bury that hatchet once and for all and try to help other submarine veterans save these boats instead of just trying to save one. I am sure that if you ask Chief Mike and others who serve on Torsk who have been to my home they can vouch that I really am submarine qualified and they have seen my qual card and a couple of the pics that I have from the USS Honolulu (SSN 718) from my tenure from '91-'94.
I do have to apologize for bashing USSVI on this and other bbs's in the last few years for what I saw as a organization that did not want to restore our boats and they just wanted to do just about everything else other then that.
Darrin
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Darrin, I'll be glad to email you an application you can filll in the blanks while looking at the page online and email to our treasure, or just print it out and send with your check..
It takes a big man to say he has been wrong and a bigger one to do something about it. I, like others started complaining about things I saw in USSVI after I joined, but then figured that the best way to fix them was to find the solution and go do it and in the process have made a lot of friends both up and down the ladder.
When you come aboard and you are welcome to go read our BBS and look at the homepage now, http://lockwoodbase.com/home.asp
you'll find that while I shoot off my mouth a lot, I only get a little testy when people start up the reg. vs associate or the nuc vs db type conversations. One of the people that you have had run ins with over on one of the other boards, joined up again a few months ago and started up with that and I tried to explain nicely why we didn't do that at LIB. John Bay, who by the way is a close friend of mine, also tried to help him, but he ended up with his feelings hurt and so doesn't grace us with his presence.
At LIB we have one type of members. LIB members, the rest is unimportant. I have never asked for and never intend to ask for someone to prove they were on a sub. Can't imagine anyone wanting to say they were if they weren't. When they are like Lance, they say they aren't and then go out and do more than a lot of the regular members, so we all get along fine and try to get a lot done.
So welcome aboard. We will be glad to have you. I'll get that application out to you tonight. The nice thing about our online base is that we have members from around the world and they can keep up with what is happening and besides the cost to drive to a meeting is much less. LOL
Viejo, aka Bill Lee
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Thanks Bill for the kind words and for sending me the application,
me and the "horsefly" have been battling on and off on 4 different bbs's for years and right now I don't care for him as a shipmate but I no longer stay mad very long at people especially those who have ridden the boats. John pointed me a while ago to the LIB bbs and I have been looking at it on and off for the last couple of days and I do like the way that it is set up and the way that things are run there in LIB.
As far as the assc vs reg member that is a moot point to me because of the folks on Torsk, IF you are willing to come to the boat and work and not set there and tell sea stories all day you are fine by me and while I used to bash DBF folks also it took a Torsk member who is a member here now to just blatently tell me to "put up or shut up" while on the other bbs's and that is when I went to my first work weekend and honestly I haven't looked back other then to say that I wished that I would have done this sooner.
Chief Mike has at times had to remind us that we are one crew on one boat and we need to refocus and get back together in line or else... Every organization has internal squabbles and it takes a strong leader to iron them out before they run rampant and from what I have seen Bill you have done that also with LIB and I welcome that.
I have been in the military on and off now for 18 years and I have seen a number of people who claim to be something that they are not and I don't care for those folks and honestly because of those folks I have been known to tell about my military career as my resume when talking to people who don't care one bit or another, and a few have asked why I have done that because they believe me from word go and I have to tell them because of the folks who have claimed to be something that they are not and I don't want them to ever believe that I am one of those folks.
Hopefully tonight I will get the application filled out and send the treasurer a online check so that I can start to contribute to the rest of the boats and not just Torsk.
Darrin
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Well, I should say welcome to LIB Darrin. :)
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Darrin, I thank you in turn for the kind words. I am really lucky with LIB as we have several members who have been there from the beginning and I just sort of open and close the meetings and keep people updated while some others do most of the work. Not sure what an online check is unless you are talking about Paypal and we had to quit using them because of some problems we had with them. But however you and Bob want to work it is fine with me.
Soon as Bob gets your app., I'll wake John Bay up as he is the guy that does the welcoming on the BBS and please don't forget about the pictures, one of you in a sailor suit I hope. LOL
By the way, any and all of you guys are sure welcome to join LIB also. The more the merrier. Might even give a discount to any who join from Lance's forum. We did that once for the guys from the Robert E. Lee and had a few join that way.
Thanks again,
Billl
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Paul,
Thank you for helping clairify. The Batfish is definately in phase 2. To add to the confusion we are in a phase one cmmunity. Oi Vey...... :uglystupid2:
And, do not feel bad about being a hot blooded italian. Tangle with us Germains once (with a smal amount of irish)..... :idiot2:
With that said. I clearly speak from my personal experiences with my local chapter and individuals in my community. I have seen so much heart ace here and petty bickering over this thing. (I will have to tell you about the paint job we had instore fro us 2 years ago). This petty bickering combined with heavy work loads and low pay helped this park go through 3 managers in as many years (fortunately mgr #3 was chained to his desk and given bread and water as a pay increase). In the end I still love them all sub vets and the veteraisn orgs that they belong to. Without them we would not be here.
I still hold to what I said however. I am not s submariner or even Navy. I am a Zoomie and proud of it. I am here for the boat and the military history that she represents. I will do whatever it takes to help things along. This includes telling someone something that they do not like to hear. (I would hope you all do the same for me) These subs are treasures.that deserve to be protected and shared. We need to keep these boats and keep them proudly.
I think the Marines said it best.....
Lead, Follow, or get out of the way.....
So please do not think anything I said was ment to bash the Sub Vets or the USSVI. Do take my observations for what they are observations made here in OK. Take my comments for what they are intended for. Stir up some action where there was inaction, and pride where there was non.....
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Well put! Bravo!
PF
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Ray Wewers --- raywewers@suddenlink.net
Shipmates, this is my first posting on this forum, but acting as the USSVI Memorials and Ceremonies Chairman, I get the feeling that many subvets, especially those associated with the Museum boats, do not realize that USSV CF has a program to provide financial assistance to the boats. If you have a project on a museum boat that requires financial assistance you can request up to $1000 per project from the M&C Fund. You are required to raise the same matching amount and submit invoices for the materials and services necessary to complete your project. You must also assign a project manager to communicate with the fund. On Razorback, we had a major project to air-condition her at a cost of approximately $25000. We received a $1000 donation from a former COB on Razorback, $4000 from a former Razorback Torpedoman's family and Razorback Base provided $11000 toward the project. We did the project in two phases and for each phase the M&C fund provided us with $1000 for a total of $2000. At present, I am in the process of rewriting the M&C procedures manual but am willing to hear from any of the museum boats who are in need of financial aid. Although our fund is limited, at present, I will try to go to the board of USSVI for more funds if necessary. If the funds are available, I am sure the National board will support the additional donations to these museum boats. I agree that these are essential to our ability to perpetuate the memory of our shipmates who gave their all for us to be free.
Along the line of museum boats and their ability to be maintained, we, Razorback Base, have become pretty good at "begging". We have been able to obtain enough vinyl tile and adhesive to replace all the tile on Razorback's main deck, enough cypress wood to replace the deteriorated topside deck, all the labor to install 4 geo-thermal AC units, and, so far, have been able to get the primer and topcoat to paint the hull and superstructure. All this has been donated at no cost to the base or the Museum.
Razorback is owned by the Arkansas Inland Maritime Museum, a subsidiary of the city of North Little Rock. The director is a USSVI member and the curator is an associate member of Razorback Base. The Maintenance Chief is a USSVI member and an employee of the city of North Little Rock. We, Subvets of Razorback Base, have a good working relationship with the staff of the Museum. Agreed we have had our differences on what needs to be done and how it should be done, but overall, we are able to work together. Our biggest problem is getting the equipment needed to some of the work due to cost. We want to remove the clamshells and send them to a machine shop to rebuild the steel supports, but it costs us $1000 a day for barge mounted crane to remove them and then the cost of restoring the supports is in addition to this. So far, we have been able to restore approximately 65% of the ship's lighting, replace the tile, replace the topside decking, scrape, prime and paint about 1/4 of the hull and superstructure. It is slow, tedious work when you only have 3 or 4 people who can dedicate about 2 days a week. Most of our volunteers have to drive anywhere from 60-80 miles one way to get to the boat and with the price of gas that gets very expensive. We try to schedule workdays once a month and in the past have had up to 8 subvets and sometimes 3-4 Air Force personnel from Little Rock Air Force Base attend. It's definitely a labor of love since the pay is non-existent. So in closing, I am available to assist any museum get some financial aid from USSVI and will try to get more information out to the museums in this matter. I may want to shoot myself for doing this after I get flooded for requests, but give me a chance to update our M&C manual before you overload me.
Ray Wewers
M&C Chairman
Razorback Base Commander
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Thank you for coming on here and posting that Ray! Just wanted to let you know I edited your post just to fix your email address so it would be clickable. That's it.
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If SVWWII folds next year what will they do with their money? I WISH the would give it all to help the museum boats (save a little for the hold out chapters). What will the chapters do with their money - those that fold? Give that to museum boat also.
I know I just got letter asking for my dues - as an associate (because I am not old enough to have been in WWII) I pay $15. I'm glad to pay it, but I sure would like to see the money help our boats. It will be one of the final things left to keep their deeds and memories alive for future generations. To spend their money on Christmas parties when our boats need help is just not right.
OK USSVI needs to kick in PLENTY now too. My days are numbered now and I sure would like the memory of our diesel boats kept alive (OK I'm not kicking the bucket all that soon - but you know what I mean at 63 I am counting down)
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Wow - a lot going on from the original post.
Speaking from experience working with nonprofits and raising funding and from being a small business owner, I have learned a few things the hard way.
First, if you are going to be passionate about something - like taking on a submarine - especially one that has been neglected for a long period of time due to the ravages of time, weather, politics, and more, then you have to understand that not everyone you meet will be as passionate as you are.
Next, if you want something done you have to do it yourself. This isn't a selfish phrase - its the truth when taking on projects that are not generally funded. Many organizations take on projects that they feel are so important that everyone will jump on the band wagon and funding would be naturally provided through organizations like USSV, federal funding, private & public donations, etc. But the reality is it doesn't work that way - well not exactly. There is funding out there. But to just assume it will come to you is just the wrong way to approach it.
I have a mantra - "You don't work with what you got - you work with what you get." If you want funding than research and discover what your boat is eligible for. You would be blown away by how much you can raise just in your own state. I recently attended a Grant Writing workshop (something you can do too) and learned MANY things - among them - that I can apply for Arts & Humanities grant fundung on behalf of the Batfish. This type of grant can be applied to a new Walk of Eternal Patrol (which is already being designed) or it can be applied to landscaping. There are grants for trails (and our park is big enough to qualify) and ther are a slew more. There are your local state and city governments. In our case, the Batfish is becoming a vital part of the tourism dollars associated with the city in which she resides. The city council is seeing this and now they are willing to seriously sit down and talk about potential funding. But you have to take steps to educate and inform and make it happen.
There are many armchair conservationists. But how many of them show up when the demand and need are on the line? So if you are going to take on a project don't gripe about what others are doing or not doing. What are YOU doing and how can you rally others to organize and take on a project to its conclusion?
The point I'm trying to make (as I see this way too often) is don't complain about a concern. Find a solution. Discuss what could be and not what is. If you don't feel that the USSV is an adequate resource than help them become what you need through the power of voice. None of these guys consider themselves in some elitist club. Sure they may be more emotionally tied to the boat you are working with but they want to see the old girl survive just like you. Present proposals and plans. Or better yet, become involved and learn about what they do. Perhaps there is a role you can play to make the difference you are seeking. Or if you just don't think it will work out, then start your own organization or seek out other like minded individuals to come together for a common cause.
The thing is - if you want change then you have to make change. Insanity is defined as doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
OK - I'll get off my soap box.
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Let me make a humble suggestion that the purpose of the USSVI is not now and probably never will be to support museum ships. I doubt it even ranks in the top 5 priorities of the organization. I'll go a step further and say "nor should it".
50,000 is a significant chunk of change, but its not in the realm of what these boats need and if you start spending it, you won't get very far with it. Leave it in the scholarship area, its something the members gain some benefit from. It is their money and their club and that they have a small program to help out boats is great. I should say our club since I'm a member.
Don't look to the USSVI for significant amounts of money. This is the old guys club where they can get together once in a while and talk about the times when they were steely eyed killers of the deep. And they remember those who can't sit around with them because of the hazards of war or the sea.
If you really want to set a ship up to last a very long time, its going to take a lot of money. You best bet is to get your Congressman to bend the rules and throw you a million or two for a drydocking and refurb. Its chump change to them and despite the agreement of "no cost to the government", it shouldn't be too difficult to get them to see the patriotic advantage at the next election and spend the money anyway. Better that than how its been spent. They get to give work to shipyard workers, please veterans and maintain a naval heritage. What more could they ask for? The trick is to identify a lobbying organization to push it, but that takes money in the first place.
Brian
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Helping out a museum submarine makes a heck of a lot better sense to me than funding the scholarship program.
100 years from now the benefits of a scholarship will be zilch as far as USSVI goes. Keeping a museum submarine around for future generations to see is the absolute best thing a veteran's organization could do to perpetuate their fallen shipmates.
But that's just my opinion.
Honestly I think 75% of the museum submarines are screwed in the long run. I don't know where proper help will come from.
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Wow,,,,
This topic is a big can of worms. I will digress on further comment as I do not wish to offend anyone and if I get started I fear that I will offend everyone.
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It is probably a good thing that you don't start to rant. I've found that overloading ones a by speaking generalities will only reap the wrath of the exceptions to the groups you sound off against. I have seen some museum boats that are very well managed. Pampanito is the shining star. Best long-term plan I've ever seen and a well-kept boat. Cod is up there. Cavalla is certainly down near the bottom of the heep. As far as management goes, Torsk is pretty close to the bottom also. All civilians aren't good managers. Some organizations are pathetic managers and certainly Torsk has some pathetic management. The volunteers bust their tails to try to maintain the boat but, have their hands tied by a group that can't make a decision to save their souls. Much better to make no decision than to make one that might be wrong. Meantime, a deck project that was started seven years ago has just taken a huge step backwards. Seabees have helping the volunteers to replace some badly deteriorated deck structure and the project is stalled because the museum management can't make up its mind as to the proper paint that should be used to preserve the new metal. Decking that had been laid has now been taken back up so the old paint can be removed and the new "super paint" can be applied. So, I applaud the civilian managers taht have done so well preserving the submarines in their care. I applaud the managers who put a portion of their gate back into the preservation of the boat. However, I will tell you once again that not all civilian management is better than a group of submarine veterans who have been there abd done that. You may not always see eye to eye, but bear in mind that the vets do have a lot of experience when it comes to maintaining and preserving a submarine.
Just my 2 cents.
Been there, done that
Mike Eacho
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I agree that ranting mostly accomplishes negative things; but, each of these groups have different managers with different management styles and you have to work with what is there. Even those of us who retired from the Navy have still worked far longer as civilians than as military personnel and from working with both over the last 50 years, I must say that a lot of civilians understand the bottom line concept and what it takes to keep the money coming in better than some who have never had to make a payroll or pay taxes for a company. Same holds true when working with educators or hospital personnel.
Certainly someone who has worked on a system knows it well, but let's take the example of paint. When I was in the Navy and for many years afterward, the concept of how to paint on metal was pretty much set down and done the same by all. But now there are new products that can get results that weren't possible years ago. If a company can afford to get the primers that bond with rust, they certainly are better than scraping and painting like we used to and sometimes, companies are forced to do things not the best, because of budget restraints.
In working with Parks and Rec in Omaha, very seldom ( actually so far,never) do I see them making a decision because of ego or ignorance, it usually boils down to how much money is there to spend and who can do it.
We subvets and other Navy people who work with them, are happy to be allowed to help with the park and the ships. Management is also very good at explaining why or why not they can or can't do something.
There is an art to managing and some in the Navy have it, some do not, some in civilian life have it and some do not. In general, I have found that the best carpenter, the best mechanic, is often not a good manager because he is always thinking of what is best for that house or piece of equipment and the manager has to look at a hundred other things, and then compromise for the long term objectives that help the company the most.
That is the major reason that so many businesses fail. Going out and fixing the lawn mower or building the house or getting something done on a museum boat that is needed is just a small part of what it takes to have the company that owns that museum boat, house, product, keep in business. I also have found that there are so many things that need doing, that when we can't do this now, we still have other things to do.
And this is why Lance's site here is so important, we can all draw from the experiences of those who have gone through the same problems and found successful solutions. I was very lucky today while working on the Marlin to have Greg Stitz and his wife come up to see the park and give me some things. Greg walked around with me and made several very good suggestions of things that will make things work better and easier. He also went out of his way to look at plans and books we had and will be making some copies of some so all will be able to have and use them. I am sure that most in the sub community have no idea how much this site has helped others and drawn people together. I hope that the camaraderie shown here can continue and that we all can benefit from each other.
Just my opinion of course.
Viejo
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I can only echo what Chief Mike has said about so many other boats that have had crap for management that sadly has pushed the subvet community away and it takes a DEDICATED crew or in our case a family to be able to keep pushing forward no matter what has happened. In the last 5 years Torsk has gone leaps and bounds (actually 11 years now) and everytime I go up something else works or something else has been restored and it is AWESOME. For the crews that do so much with so little I take my hat off to ALL of you for bringing our heritage back to life once more so that the future generations can see what our forefathers and all whom have contributed to the submarine community have done.
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Beating this gong will only wear it out, but here goes:
I think COD has the best management because we only run COD on a business basis. Pure Darwinian capitalism. What is good for the business end of the boat is actually good for the preservation aspects. Problem with subvets is they arn't businessmen. They know about OPERATING subs, but damn little about preserving them. I have a 33 year basis of opinion. Get that? 33 years. Now things have changed, thankfully. Today most of the boats are on the UPSWING. Today more museum boats have working engines that at any time in history! Yeah!!!! But if we want to drag out the past, more damage has been done by subvets to the boats than has good. They used to see the boats as their personal clubhouses and much damage to historic fabric was done. There is also, among some, an attitude that is not helpful when you want to get along with civilians. Now I am not saying there are not jerks on the civilian side (having been accused of same myself)... but the point is, when a sub becomes a historical object, a whole NEW SET OF SKILLS IS NEEDED, primarily business skills, and historic preservation skills. Have yet to see any government entities or personel show apitutude here... that includes city/state boards and vets. What is needed is a good mix-diverstiy as it were. Where boats are moving ahead, it is because people with the right skills are involved. To have a bunch of wrench jockeys without a good business management means there is little funding for long-term restoration and preservation. To have just vets, well that means disaster (think CROAKER, LING, BATFISH (before her current crew), etc.; To have just city/state/government staff, think about CLAMAGORE, TORSK (before the TVA), CAVALLA (in the bad old days before John McMichaels). The best boats have civilian crews with vets who can get along: PAMPANITO, COD (only after lots of heartaches in the past), BOWFIN, COBIA and now CAVALLA. The PAMP has so much going for her, a legacy of Russ Booth. But in the day, Russ had to kick some subvet butt off the boat and say: "comeback when you can work with civilians under our rules!" It was tough, but it worked. I just go nuts when I hear subvets say they can do it better.
It takes a village to raise a sub boys!
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I recently posted this on the Base Commanders BBS and on LIB. If people are going to give to scholarships, they need to at least know that the people receiving the money are advertising our submarine community as this young lady has done. It also is good publicity for Freedom Park as three of the pictures on the disply are pictures of Freedom Park.
Viejo
Recently I had a young lady write and ask a lot of questions about subs and those who served on them. Then she came to Freedom Park with her parents and we spent several hours going over the Marlin and talking about what subs did and what it was like. She did a presentation for an Iowa History Day competition and from a district that has a lot of big middle schools, she won the alternate spot in the State Competition. This included several weeks of putting together her presentation including a large board with pictures and facts about subs and what they have done for the defense of our country. She also went to two of the State Universities to learn how to put together historical documents.
What's the point of all this, well her presentation and display are exactly what our creed is all about. She has educated hundreds of people about those in our sub force who gave all and why it was important.
In looking over the requirements for our Scholarship Program, where the largest amount of money from the CF is and is spent, I saw the following requirements:
Scholastic proficiency
Further, it is required that the applicant submit a 400 word essay detailing why they are deserving of the scholarship.
This is great and makes sense in that they are demonstrating that they are active in the community; but, what I don't see a word about in here is their demonstrating that they like my young friend Kirsten, have gone out and educated the public to what our creed is about. Nothing that says they have talked to people about our sub force and those who served. Nothing that says that they have volunteered in a submarine related project.
I think perhaps it would be good and make our Scholarship program tied more to our creed if the person applying would have to be able to show that they have learned about and shared their knowledge of the sacrifices of our fallen heroes, with their family, neighbors and the community. That would show that it isn't just another amount of money they want to pick up, but that they actually have respect for and care about our submarine veterans.
Here is a couple of pictures of what Kirsten put together, along with, in her report, a very detailed and accurate portrayal of our submarine force.
Participation in extra curricular activities that benefit their school and/or community
Recognition of volunteer activities as demonstrated by awards, etc.
Financial need
school and/or communityParticipation in extra curricular activities that benefit their awards, etc.
Further, it is required that the applicant submit a 400 word essay detailing why they are deserving of the scholarship.
This is great and makes sense in that they are demonstrating that they are active in the community; but, what I don't see a word about in here is their demonstrating that they like my young friend Kirsten, have gone out and educated the public to what our creed is about. Nothing that says they have talked to people about our sub force and those who served. Nothing that says that they have volunteered in a submarine related project.
I think perhaps it would be good and make our Scholarship program tied more to our creed if the person applying would have to be able to show that they have learned about and shared their knowledge of the sacrifices of our fallen heroes, with their family, neighbors and the community. That would show that it isn't just another amount of money they want to pick up, but that they actually have respect for and care about our submarine veterans.
Here is a couple of pictures of What Kirsten put together, along with, in her report, a very detailed and accurate portrayal of our submarine force.
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Thanks for sharing the info on this future submarie commander (hell, she may someday be COMSUB!)...
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Paul, enjoyed your comments above.
I think COD has the best management because we only run COD on a business basis. Pure Darwinian capitalism. What is good for the business end of the boat is actually good for the preservation aspects. Problem with subvets is they aren't businessmen. They know about OPERATING subs, but damn little about preserving them. I have a 33 year basis of opinion.
If you have gotten into trouble voicing them to subvets, imagine how they react when a subvet says it to them.
With the new base that is forming in Omaha, I spent a solid two hours the other night answering questions and explaining the relationship between their base ( when they come to the park, they are individual volunteers) and Parks and Rec. Most of the questions were well thought out and I think the people in the base are understanding what it is going to take ( maybe that is why most didn't show up the next workday) but I figured it was best to start off on the right foot, even if it wasn't considered by some, the best foot.
This is why Gil Raynor and I started the whole let's go for some large donations discussions. There are just as many in USSVI that don't understand how to run a museum boat as there are those who are against women on subs. Both from ignorance in most cases. I don't mean they can't see problems, they just are wasting time talking about something they have no control over and they don't think like people on boats do now.
I have never asked Kirsten what her plans are for later on or even how she got interested in subs. I probably will sometime, but at the time, didn't even think about that part of it. I was just happy to see a young lady who could understand why submarines are important and appreciated what we did.
I also tried in some conversations to other subvets, to explain that the holy set of dolphins is not what is important when working with museum boats and that we have non sub veterans and non-veterans that daily demonstrate more love for what the boats did than a lot of those who belong yet can't be bothered to be involved.
That of course was one of the things I most appreciated about Rickover. What your title was, was totally immaterial. How well you did your job and how safely you did your job was what he was interested in and it was so nice to work for someone that tried to get you to do more instead of being afraid if you did something it would make him look bad.
I appreciate all you guys who keep these boats up in spite of sometimes, instead of because of the help, you get from subvets. I know you do it because you love the boats and all the rest is second.
Thanks to all of you guys.
Viejo
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I assume all know, but better say, there are a lot of subvets who are totally dedicated to working with our boats and they do have the right attitude. Many of them work under much less enjoyable circumstances than I do. I just have little time for those who criticize without wanting to understand or work. I have one guy on the Marlin who was out of the country for two weeks and stopped by the boat on the way home to his family to see if we needed help. That is the type of shipmate that you love.
Viejo
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BZ to Paul on his comments regarding a need for ballance between bussiness and Historical (subvets) and Civilian input. This is a difficult ballance to maintain. This is what I have been trying to push at the Batfish for the past 3 years. Paul Just put it much more eloquently then I ever could...
I may be quoting you in the future Paul...... :2funny:
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:crazy2:USSVI August-September Convention, Cincinnati: As an lifetime (associate!) member, I plan to attend; however, I carry no weight neither there nor with USSVI board/committees, etc.
What USSVI members are involved in memorial/museum boats funding from Charitable Foundation? Have any of you talked person(s)? What responses?
For the reasons mentioned above, I choose the memorial/museum boats fund to benefit from sub cookbook rather that scholarship,but for memorials for deceased submariners -- Brotherhood fund.
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The USSVI just recently upped their matching donation to museum boats to $2,000/year and the Drum has recieved ours. Donations can be made to the Charitable fund to a specific boat or for the general fund for the museum boats to be given to the ones that need it and ask for it. The museum boat asking for it must have recieved donations from else where and they will match it.
Tom
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Tom,
Who do I talk to to get more details. Rick
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Rick
I believe you have to have a subvet member of USSVI request the matching funds and you have to have recieved donations from other sources up to the $2,000 of matching funds or possibly receipts for materials for the Batfish. I sent you the email address to your private mail. He will be able to answer any questions for you. His name is Ray Weweres.
Tom
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thank you Tom. Ths helps out a lot...
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When a base is working with a project, whether a museum boat or something else, the appoint a project manager and he in turn puts together a plan including costs. Once money has been raised to at least the $2000 level then the project manager can talk with Ray Wewers and he in turn will discuss with his committtee and approve the matching funds. Then John Andersen, the CF treasurer is the one who writes a check or checks. This can be for money already spent or to pay an invoice or bill that has come in for for something bought. There is a M & C handbook that can be downloaded from the USSVI page that describes all this.
Viejo
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I note that this thread started in June of 2008 and a lot of topics regarding management and subvet versus civilian management have been aired. Those who realize each museum boat is unique unto itself in so many significant ways have, at least in my opinion, come closer to seeing the truth. Each boat is indeed unique form of ownership, management, availability of funding, relations with subvets, etc. None of this is a "one size fits all" situation.
Start with ownership - all but a couple of the US boats in the Museum Fleet are "owned" conditionally due to the six or seven page donation contract the Navy issued. From an accounting standpoint, for example, PAMPANITO is carried at zero value on the Association's books due to the conditions of ownership imposed in that particular contract. That "book value" has nothing to do with the cost of operating the boat as a museum or the costs of maintaining her according to Navy standards - and annual inspections which the Association must, indeed, account for. But, because the Association does not have the right to dispose of PAMPANITO either by donation or by sending her off to the scrapyard, the Association "owns" only the responsibility to be a good and faithful steward of the boat.
Management of a memorial submarine has been a point of controversy for years - as is evidenced by posts in this forum as well as elsewhere. I'm a subvet - in fact, I qualified both silver and gold - which makes me NOT an authority, but I certainly believe I can grasp most of the management issues. Again, back to my opening thought - each museum boat is unique. So, considering management, whether it be "civilian" or subvet, some boats have had success with each model - and others have had their asses handed to them under the same models.
I'm of the opinion subvets have literally saved some of these treasures from the scrap yard - and in other cases, subvets have caused significant harm to museum boats. Ditto civilian management. Or, said another way, seeking the perfect form of management is much akin to looking for a virgin in a cathouse. Good luck.
Funding is a major issue in either scenario - subvet or civilian managed. There are no easy answers and again, even the so-called basics do not conform with a “one size fits all” approach. I’m aware of a couple of museum submarines who have benefitted from former crew - or their families - making major donations. In other cases, the museum boats are located in areas that benefit from either high tourism or strong local support and commitment. Others are simply dying on the vine despite everyone’s concerted efforts to the contrary.
Someone posted in this thread to the effect “just because you have a passion for a museum boat, don’t expect that everyone you meet will share that passion.” Well stated.
So, raising funding is as much an individual museum boat issue as the rest of the picture is an individual boat issue.
Relations with subvets are the non-linear piece of the equation. Some posters comment that all the subvets want to do is hang out and swap no-shitters. Those posters, from their particular perspectives, are probably 100% correct. Other posters point to a dedicated handful of subvets literally saving a boat from the scrapyard. You know what? They are also 100% correct. Again, the individual museum boat is the focus, not the entire museum boat fleet.
Sadly, there are no easy answers here either. But I have to agree with those posters who hold that no matter who owns the boat or manages it, it is always a precious historic artifact that requires preservation, restoration, and interpretation (that’s a polite word for telling the public what the boat is all about and its historic role in service to our country).
All of these challenges have been with us from day one and will persist long past our respective lifetimes with little net change as a whole. Some museum boats will repair their problems and at the same time, others will find a way to let their problems bound out of control and adversely impact them.
All of that being said, I see an even bigger problem - we know our WWII brothers are dying off at a horrible rate. Look around, you cold war vets, especially the DBFers - we are also getting into our declining years.
So if a museum boat is going to depend upon subvets, they need to make a major shift in focus to getting the nuke types involved as docents and repair gangs. I don’t see this happening on a consistent basis. Instead, unfortunately, what I’m seeing and hearing of is that dastardly “them-vs-us” attitude. Even the DBFers who ultimately went Nuke are in that same group of cold war vets.
PAMPANITO has a strong cadre of WWII and cold war DBFers - docents as well as repair and restoration folks. We also have some dedicated civilians -- and, behold, a few Nukes now joining our ranks. Bless ‘em all!
The docent “script” for PAMPANITO’s role in WWII is the backbone of our interpretation program and in some cases - yes, I’ll stick my neck out and say this - the Nukes and civilians in general get a far better grasp on that portion of our mission than some of the DBFers do.
Yes, with regard to our interpretative mission, our esteemed WWII boys can speak with authority because they BTDT. The DBFers generally can translate their experience back a few years.
But to the Nukes and civilians, this is an entirely new world.
Our latest Volunteer Manual has this to say:
“3.0.2 DIESEL AND NUCLEAR - A GUT ISSUE TO SETTLE RIGHT UP FRONT
PAMPANITO’s Docent corps increasingly includes more nuclear submariners with very little or no diesel boat experience. A major influx of non-submariner Docents cannot be that far off.
Indeed, some memorial museum boats already have a high percentage of civilian Docents who never served in the military, let alone submarines. Many are college students studying museum management who are required to perform intern work. PAMPANITO has had the services of such interns, but thus far, never as Docents.
This is an obvious progression from DBF to NBF and civilians because, unfortunately, the infirmities of age are catching up with our diesel boat brothers and they are becoming too infirm to serve as Docents. Each year, we see the DBF content of our Docent program dropping.
The day is not far off when PAMPANITO will no longer be blessed with WWII subvet Docents and soon thereafter, our Cold War diesel boat veterans will join that same chapter of bygone days.
This inevitable, disheartening progression underscores an essential point, however:
Your role as a PAMPANITO Docent is to assist our visitors in understanding what life was like aboard a WWII submarine such as PAMPANITO.
Thus, your commentary should never dwell on nuclear submarines except to briefly answer questions that may arise about the differences between nuclear and diesel submarines’ capabilities.
Out of respect to our WWII brothers, Docents should never engage in discussions whether nuclear or diesel boats were “better.”
Each was “best” for its own reasons. Each served or serves its purpose capably and with distinction. Denigrating the other is simply churlish behavior that the Association will not tolerate.
The plain fact of life is that from USS HOLLAND in 1900 on, throughout WWI and WWII and for many years into the Cold War, the United States Navy only had internal combustion engine-powered boats. Today, the USN only has nuclear powered boats.
Irrespective of the source of propulsion power, those who sailed in harm’s way aboard submarines in service to our country served in boats the Navy assigned them to -- and they made the best possible use of the warfighting machines they served in, no matter how it was propelled.
Honoring the memory of ALL submariners -- of all times, wars, and propulsion power -- is an important mission that PAMPANITO serves.
Docents must continue to demonstrate respect for all submariners.”[/size]
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Well Put!
But I have to make a comment or two:
1. Do you mean to tell me that subvets actually have venomous arguments about diesel vs. nuke subs -- which is better? You've got to be kidding me! It's like fighting over sail vs. steam! Each has its unique and important place in history! The transition period was important and left some feathers ruffled. Funny, but when I asked a docent aboard another DBF about that period he gave me a kurt "no such thing every existed" reply. Guess that was a cover.
2. Pamp has had non-dolphin docents in the past. Hell, the man who wrote the book on submarine restoration, Russ Booth, was never in the service. Ditto for about 90% of COD's present day crew. Having dolphins (nuke or even diesel) often means you have to "unlearn" quite a bit before you can be effective.
But they often are very important when it comes to fixing a burned out fuse!