SUBMARINEMUSEUMS.ORG Forum
Individual Submarine Boards => USS Clamagore (SS-343) => Topic started by: Lance Dean on February 29, 2008, 07:32:01 PM
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I read the following on http://www.saveoursubmarines.com (http://www.saveoursubmarines.com):
News of the Clamagore:
NEWS-03: SITREP: USS Clamagore at Patriots Point, SC Submitted by: George Bass on 10/30/2007
The CEO at Patriots Point just resigned. He was a friend of the Clamagore gang; however, now he is gone.
We do not know who will become the CEO as the Intrim CEO has stated he does not want the position as he is the Financial Officer for Patriots Point, which is a lot less stress.
We have a cost of about $10 million to pull the 343 out of its berth - taken to a yard for an overhaul. The superstructure needs to be replaced and it really needs a lot of work both topside and below deck. Patriots Point does not have sufficient funds to maintain the Naval vessels there. The State is not of help and the Navy does not support ships on loan to the likes of Patriots Point. We don't know the future at this point - there are just not enough funds to maintain the ships at Patriots Point.
Anyone know what has happened since 10/30/2007 with the Clamagore and Patriots Point?
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Hi there. We are in the planning stages for holding a living history event on the Clamagore the weekend of May 31st, June 1st. Most of us have been doing similar programs on the Battleship North Carolina and the USS Laffey. The bubbleheads in the group have been itching to do a program on a submarine for quite a while and we recently got the nod from Patriots Point. We are going to interpret her during the 50s and 60s, the overlooked cold war period when the diesel boats were holding the line against the soviets. Those of us who are already qualified are going to go through a re-qual process, and the new guys will work on a qual card we are designing, modeled on the 1950s cards. We expect about 10 to 20 of the regulars to show up for the inaugural event, still working up a plan of the day, but we know we'll hold school of the boat, probably some watches and interpreting the various spaces. As soon as Patriots Point lets us we'll include maintenance in the program, the public loves to see a sailor chipping paint! Terry
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Rick from the Batfish here.
I would be interested in learning more about your Qual process. Unfortunately I not a bubble head by trade or tradition, I am a zoomie from the Desert Strom I erra. I would like to know more about this process for our own museums as I am constantly truing new things and to establish bring this museum back to live.
We have made great stried this last year and I can see more in the futrue.
Thank you in advance
Rick
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Terry is talking about the submarine qualification process which involves tracing out every pipe in the boat by hand and drawing a diagram, knowing how to operate every piece of equipment, knowing the location of every switch and valve in the boat and its purpose and being able to find them blindfolded.
Tom Bowser
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Correy, our reenacting CO, came up with a simple 20-question test as a start for a "qual. test". It's more like an introductory test, but it starts crewmen down the path of learning more about the boat.
Terry, if you're interested in how we manage our crew, our website is www.ss310.com.
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Just in thanks to Paul F.
Time runs out as water seeps in
Authority gets lots of support, no money to save warships
By Allyson Bird
The Post and Courier
Thursday, April 23, 2009
In the wake of its executive director's abrupt resignation, the Patriots
Point Development Authority is scrambling to find funding as the clock
ticks on the multimillion-dollar repairs that its aging fleet of
warships require.
"The financial structure of the Patriots Point Development Authority
does not work," said Chairman John Hagerty. "It was never structured to
maintain the ships, which have a 25-year useful life. That has run out."
The destroyer Laffey needs major work on its hull or it could sink
within a year.
The Patriots Point Naval and Maritime Museum was opened by the state in
1975, and the agency that runs it is responsible for sustaining itself
financially.
Officials two months ago unveiled a $64 million master plan to repair
the four deteriorating warships and redevelop the prime waterfront site
to keep the Mount Pleasant visitor attraction thriving — but no plan for
how to get the money it needs to pay for it all.
The authority relies heavily on ticket sales for operating revenue. But
attendance peaked in the 2002 fiscal year at nearly 297,000 paid
admissions and has slumped nearly every year since, dropping to 218,000
customers in fiscal 2007, according to the authority.
The numbers rebounded last year, though, reaching more than 229,000 paid
admissions.
A state-funded audit from September noted the fiscal 2008 increase and
said "the authority's overall financial position is sound, and the
authority is well-positioned to maintain its financial stability with
resources being closely guarded in order to maintain the ability to
react to changing economic times."
Then came the events of the current fiscal year, which began July 1 and
has encompassed not only the entire recession but also a major new
financial challenge for Patriots Point — its aging fleet of warships.
With only three months left in fiscal 2009, paid attendance totals fewer
than 145,000 so far this year. When Patriots Point laid off 11
employees, reduced part-time hours and required unpaid time off for its
remaining 70 full-time workers, it cited the attendance decline and
emergency repairs for one ship in particular.
The destroyer Laffey, which in World War II gained the nickname "The
Ship that Would Not Die," for surviving heavy damage, recently received
a grim prognosis: It'll sink within a year if not removed from the water
for major work on its hull. That doctoring could require upwards of $8
million. And the museum's other ships — the aircraft carrier Yorktown,
the cutter Ingham and the submarine Clamagore — need extensive repairs.
"I think if we, the state, allow the Laffey to sink, it would be a slap
in the face of every veteran," Hagerty said. "The game plan is to
continue what we've been doing, which is to press our case with
politicians — local, state and federal — and to be transparent as an
organization, so the public will know what our situation is, and the
public will influence politicians to make a decision."
Before resigning Sunday after less than a year as Patriots Point
executive director, Hugh Tant III appealed to lawmakers in Columbia and
Washington, D.C. He received interest and support, even a $20 million
federal funding request from U.S. Rep. Henry Brown, but no firm
financial commitments.
In the meantime, Hagerty said, the authority's options include seeking
authorization to issue bonds or obtaining a loan through the state
treasurer's office.
Rep. James Smith, D-Columbia, said he hopes to make the bonding option a
reality by the end of this legislative session. As for the loan, Deputy
State Treasurer Scott Malyerck said Patriots Point representatives asked
for about $12 million but that his office cannot yet offer them a reply.
Despite the urgent need for money, Hagerty worries about taking on debt.
"Here's what makes me nervous," Hagerty said. "What if we had the
opportunity to borrow some money short-term? We'd have to figure out how
to spend that money and then how to pay it back."
Another big worry, he said, is that if the Laffey sinks, the salvage
could cost more than the repairs.
"It could be a significant environmental hazard," he said. "We are very
worried about what could happen to the waters."
In its current condition, the Laffey might not survive if a hurricane or
tropical storm churns up Charleston Harbor, Hagerty was told by a staff
member.
The person whose task it is to lead Patriots Point from here is interim
Executive Director Dick Trammell, who said he will begin his job with
staff briefings on the agency's priorities and its budget. Trammell, a
finalist for the executive director position when Tant was selected last
May, previously headed the Charleston Area Convention & Visitors Bureau.
Patriots Point, by state mandate, will seek candidates for Tant's
permanent replacement. Trammell, who most recently was the maritime
museum's marketing director, said he's not yet sure whether he plans to
apply again.
"My focus right now is on this interim position and getting everything
we need to get done before this session of the Legislature ends," he said.
Asked how long Patriots Point knew about the dire situation with the
Laffey and the growing concern with its other ships, Trammell said the
U.S. Navy conducts an annual survey on the fleet, though that inspection
only looks inside the vessels. He said the extent of the Laffey's damage
only became apparent when water rushed into the hull in December.
Trammell said he recognizes that the task ahead means simultaneously
formulating a plan and gathering resources.
"We have support from the delegations in Columbia and Washington and the
administration of the governor, but we have not received any checks," he
said. "Not only are we in need of checks, but we're in need of answers
about how we can save the ships."
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More gloom for Clamagore. :( Thanks again for the news Paul.
Patriots Point might cut exhibits
Museum may focus mostly on Yorktown, lose some vessels
By Allyson Bird
The Charleston Post and Courier
Wednesday, April 29, 2009
Financially strapped Patriots Point should cut loose as many as three of
its four warships and focus its limited resources on the primary draw,
the aircraft carrier Yorktown, Chairman John Hagerty said at a board
meeting Tuesday.
The aircraft carrier Yorktown is one of four museum vessels berthed at
Patriots Point. The struggling attraction might have to reduce the
number of exhibits it has to maintain. Its development authority is
seeking a long-term plan to carry it into the future.
The aircraft carrier Yorktown is one of four museum vessels berthed at
Patriots Point. The struggling attraction might have to reduce the
number of exhibits it has to maintain. Its development authority is
seeking a long-term plan to carry it into the future.
"We have ships 25 years old and no structure in our funding to maintain
them," Hagerty said. "That leads to some very difficult choices."
Over the past several months, the attraction's dire situation became
increasingly clear: All four ships need repairs, and the Patriots Point
Development Authority does not have the necessary money or any plan for
how to get it.
Experts gave the destroyer Laffey, known in World War II as "The Ship
that Would Not Die," a year before the hundreds of holes in the hull
sink it. Hagerty pointed out that the Laffey Foundation contributed some
$30,000 but that short-term costs exceed $300,000 and long-term needs
extend into the millions.
"Can you imagine how we have blown our trust if she sinks?" Hagerty said.
Instead, he told the authority, "Pick what we can do and do it right.
Don't ever be in this position again."
Other board members questioned the idea of turning a naval museum into a
single-ship attraction, and the group decided to wait until its May
meeting to take action.
Officials reviewed the status of each ship. The submarine Clamagore
might eventually head to a land-side exhibit, while the cutter Ingham
could move to the care of a Coast Guard group in Florida.
Hagerty hopes to focus resources on building an enclosure around the
Yorktown, another deteriorating vessel. It carries onboard
environmentally hazardous fuel, and also Patriots Point's crown jewel:
the Congressional Medal of Honor Museum.
"I'm reading the writing on the wall, and I think we need to be
realistic," Hagerty said. "I don't think we're going to have the ability
to afford any more than Yorktown."
Patriots Point Operations Director Bob Howard said the authority faces
three options with the Laffey. Turning it into an artificial reef proves
cheapest. The agency also could complete the Laffey's renovation if the
money becomes available, or it could make minimal repairs to stabilize
the ship.
Howard said he is discussing the destroyer's repairs with five
businesses, including two local companies, and her environmental threat
with the state Department of Natural Resources, the Coast Guard and the
U.S. Environmental Protection Agency.
He said he should have an engineer's report on the ship by the end of
next week.
The authority voted Tuesday to put out a request for professional
services to develop a master plan for its waterfront property. The
agency plans to pay the winning bidder $250,000 from its reserves.
Hagerty said state and federal repair money will never materialize as
long as Patriots Point lacks a clearly defined, long-term plan. The
attraction received a $20 million funding request from U.S. Rep. Henry
Brown, R-S.C., and a favorable reception from the state treasurer's
office for potential emergency funding — but neither translates into
immediate cash.
"We need to do this so badly now," Hagerty said. "We need to get the
right number to the people who are going to fund us."
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We just got an E-mail from Senior Chief Busch who volunteers on Clamagore every day. The news is even worse. He is saying they will sell her for scrap if they can't get another site to adopt her. In her current condition I don't see that as much of a possibility. He said the destroyer Laffey is so bad they can't get Coast Guard permission to tow her for fear she will founder in the channel and block it. Gloom and doom. Why is it a bunch of inept banks can get billions but the government can't throw some at the really important stuff? Hello, American historical vessels, which would provide jobs and buy American made steel, etc. I include all Historic Naval Ships in that, plus National Parks and whatever. Terry
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We will be down there on the 26th & 27th of this month. The 4 of us are planning on touring the ships at Patriots Point probably on Monday July 27th. I understand that the destroyer is not open for touring, but hopefully the other 3 are. Is the tour of the Clamagore guided or self-guided? I would like to take a bunch of pictures and some of the guided tours prevent this. :)
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Sounds like the only good that can come out of this is much needed parts for the remaining museums.
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So, how much $$$ are they thinking it will take to heep the Clamagore afloat?
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I haven't heard anything about the Clamagore in a while. I hope they have found some money by now somehow.
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Read here:
http://www.cvanews.org/CVANEWSNewsEvents.htm
Doesn't sound too good.
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Yeah, typical malaise from government. It won't help them get many votes. So, they aren't interested.
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USS Laffey and USS Ingham not available for tours
Aug 10, 2009
The USS Laffey and the USS Ingham are not currently available for tours.
On August 19, the USS Laffey will be moved from Patriots Point to Deyten's Shipyard in North Charleston for repairs to her hull. The maintenance is expected to take three to four months at which time the destroyer will be unavailable for touring.
On August 20, the USS Ingham will be transported to Florida where it will stop for repairs before traveling to Key West to join the USS Mohawk CGC Memorial Museum as an addition to their fleet permanently.
We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause but encourage you to visit all of the other attractions at the Patriots Point Naval & Maritime Museum. A fleet of historic ships, including the USS Yorktown and USS Clamagore, as well as the Medal of Honor Museum, Cold War Submarine Memorial and the Vietnam Naval Support Base, the only exhibit of its kind in the United States, provide a first-hand look at life on the front lines.
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All 4 of us spent the entire day at Patriots Point on Monday July 27th. Overall we enjoyed the tours very much. I would have liked to meet some of the volunteers that work on the Clamagore, but everyone I talked to didn't seem to know much or care about my questions. As I said before, we did enjoy our visit and are glad we got a chance to see the boat and carrier. I was a little disapointed the other 2 ships were closed to touring. I hope this isn't taken the wrong way, but we all felt that there was something missing comparing the Clamagore to other subs we have toured and the Yorktown to the Lexington.
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More bad news.
http://www.postandcourier.com/news/2009/oct/25/dire-straits-at-patriots-point/
Dire straits at Patriots Point
Sunday, October 25, 2009
The public already had a clue about the problems facing the Patriots Point Naval & Maritime Museum when the USS Laffey, a World War II destroyer, was forced to undergo costly, emergency repairs this summer. But the $9.2 million expense of repairing "The Ship that Would Not Die" is a fraction of what's needed to fix up the museum's other two vessels. The staggering sums cited in a letter to the State Budget and Control Board say that the museum requires the attention of state and federal officials who might help keep it afloat.
John Hagerty, board chairman of the Patriots Point Development Authority, outlined the potential expense of repairing the aircraft carrier Yorktown, the centerpiece of the museum, and the submarine Clamagore in an Oct. 19 letter to the B&C Board. Repairing the Yorktown would cost an estimated $50 million to $150 million. Repairs to the Clamagore would cost $10 million to $25 million.
Meanwhile, Mr. Hagerty wrote that a federal allocation to repay the money spent on the Laffey repairs won't be forthcoming this year. Our report on Saturday noted that putting the ship into a better berth at Patriots Point will require additional work for which the authority also lacks funding.
The Department of the Navy, alerted to the problems of the Laffey and other ex-Navy vessels, sent a letter in June to all museums in the nation with ships donated by the Navy, asking for detailed plans related to their maintenance or their disposal. A Navy spokesman tells us the department is still waiting for a response from the Patriots Point Development Authority.
The Navy can demand an accounting for the vessels it donated to the museum, but worse timing would be hard to imagine -- and not just for Patriots Point. The nation may be emerging from a recession, but except for federal stimulus money there isn't much funding for capital projects. Many states, including South Carolina, have been struggling to maintain essential services. The Patriots Point Development Authority is a state agency, but is generally expected to pay its own way through admissions and other revenues.
The authority is in the process of putting together a master plan that will detail the work that needs to be done and provide suggestions to pay for it. But museum officials recognize that Patriots Point can't meet its responsibilities without assistance.
Mr. Hagerty wrote: "For the Patriots Point Development Authority to have a chance to obtain the funding to maintain these ships, an overall strategic approach needs to be developed to source these funds at the state and federal government levels and from private sources."
Dick Trammell, executive director of Patriots Point, says that disposal of the Yorktown and Clamagore is "not an option." It shouldn't be, but the Navy could probably force the issue under the terms of the agreement by which it donated the vessels to the museum. At this point, that would be both premature and counterproductive.
S.C. Senate President Pro Tempore Glenn McConnell is dismayed over the recurrent financial problems of Patriots Point and the emergency calls for ship repairs. "The state doesn't have $100 million," he tersely observed.
Sen. McConnell will ask the Legislature to approve a reorganization of the governing board for the Patriots Point Development Authority to provide for broader representation and oversight. And he will ask for a review of the authority by the Legislative Audit Council to suggest solutions to its fiscal woes. Both are good ideas.
But while comprehensive planning, reorganization, review and oversight could improve the responsible operation of this public agency, it is unlikely that any combination of the above can provide the solution to the pending demand for vessel repairs.
The attention of the state's congressional delegation is needed, recognizing the appropriate federal role in keeping the nation's historic treasures intact. All of the authority's vessels are designated as national historic monuments, and each has a storied history in defense of the United States. The Congressional Medal of Honor Museum, located on the Yorktown, is another reminder of the heroism of America's fighting men.
As Sen. McConnell says, the naval museum serves as "a monument to the generation that saved civilization."
The importance of keeping alive the memory of that generation should encourage immediate efforts toward long-term, comprehensive solutions for the museum's vessels and its management.
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Sorry for replying so late,was laid off my job and been busy trying to find work.
The status of the Point is not good,the navy sent a letter to Patriots Point to either fix the ships or get rid of them. This is not really acceptable.
The USS Laffey is in drydock finally getting repaired,but there may not be a place to dock her when she gets out of drydock.
The Yorktown needs between 100 and 125 million dollars to fix her up,and the Clamagore needs between 15 and 25 million dollars. This is money the state doesnt have,and we are not expecting any help from Washington.
The process will not happen right away,but as it stands now,in about 5 years,Patriots Point and these historic ships will be gone.
To those of us who volunteer at the Point,and have served on the ships here,this isnt acceptable. The Clamagore is the last of her kind,no more FRAM 3 GUPPIES exist,she is a great ambassador to the public of Submarine History,and deserves to be saved.
Wish us luck.
STSCS(SS) Sid Busch,USN(RET)
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Sid,
thank you for the work that you do at Patriot's point, I can only hope that IF the Navy tells them to scrap them that someone can come in and save them at the last minute even if it means they leave Charleston not to come back.
Darrin
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Darrin,
Thanks,I was just in Baltimore for the marathon a few weeks ago, I wasnt walking to good afterwards so wasnt able to get over to see the Torsk Saturday. Made it over Sunday morning before having to leave,but she was closed. Stood there and admired all the great work you guys are doing,she really looks fantastic,I wish with all my heart that we can make the old 343 look that good.
Sid
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Former crew wants sub kept out of water (Post and Courier)
The sailors who crewed the 325-foot-long submarine Clamagore think it's time to pull the boat out of the water at Patriots Point and put it on display on dry land.
If not, they fear their Cold War memorial to the "Silent Service" will get lost to the elements, maybe forever. (read more at link below)
http://www.postandcourier.com/news/2009/oct/28/former-crew-wants-sub-kept-out-of-water/ (http://www.postandcourier.com/news/2009/oct/28/former-crew-wants-sub-kept-out-of-water/)
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Sid,
I have no doubt that once they get her to a shipyard or at least pull her out of the water that you all will make her look good once more, if you go and look at the USS Cavalla she was in worse shape then the Clamagore (she was on land already) when her volunteer crew came to her rescue and brought her back to life and the life of the USS Stewart (DE-???)
Darrin