SUBMARINEMUSEUMS.ORG Forum
General Boards => Submarine Related Chatter => Topic started by: Paul Farace on September 02, 2008, 08:15:31 PM
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Just watched a bit of the RNC coverage on FOX... the big anchor commentator was describing how the elder President Bush's plane attacked a Japanese installation on the Island of Chachi Jima where he was hit by flak and he and two other crewmen had to EJECT and only Bush senior survived to be rescued by a DESTROYER... :tickedoff:
My sympathies to the men of the USS FINBACK who pulled Bush Sr. out of the drink, almost under the guns of the Jap island, and I guess it might be nit picking to fault the under-40-year-old anchor with not knowing that ejection seats were something of the Cold War era... the boys in the wild blue of WWII had to BAIL OUT!!!
military history geek
PF
:knuppel2:
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It probably wasn't so much the anchor's fault as it was the script writer...geez...doesn't anyone check this stuff anymore?
No Paul...it's not nitpicking. It's called being too lazy to do the research.
Mark A.
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Also, his plane only had two guys in it. They probably meant to say that fellow crew members from some of the other planes in his squadron had bailed out, but only he was rescued.
Have either of you read "Fly Boys"? It's a good book that covers some of the events surrounding Chi Chi Jima, including Bush's ordeal and the fate of some of the other not so lucky crewmen that were picked up by the Japs and later beheaded. One of the nastiest Jap commander SOBs was in charge of that island's defense.
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It's not like they have not seen this for about 20 years - come one. There is no end of information on this...
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq10-3.htm
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Even that website says that he was pulled out of the water by a destroyer. Was that your point, JT?
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Hmm...wasn't he offloaded to a destroyer later?
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Have either of you read "Fly Boys"?
It's on my bookshelf..won it off ebay about a month ago brand new. I guess I should give it a read.
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Eject....bail out. Same difference. The only difference between them is technology. Sure we can be stitch nazis and criticize them but to the general public it's the same thing. For most people on this forum there Fathers were in WW2 and heard the stuff with no gap. But You get people mine and Travis's age, ~19 years old, and it's our Grand and sometimes great grandfathers. It's kind of like going going into the differences between a M16a1 and a2 (for all the gun freaks! ;)).
I just see this alot in many different history, military, reenacting sites and groups. Of course we know. We have spent years learning it. True the USS Finback wasn't mentioned, but thats because Submariners are that cool. Rick says this alot: What does the average person know about a sub?
[/rant]
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Even that website says that he was pulled out of the water by a destroyer. Was that your point, JT?
That reporting is done by dumb people. I was looking for the tribute that Bush gave to the sub crew that pulled him out of the water. Not too long ago he either gave or was given a pistol that had to do with his rescure. He did it in Philadelphia. Man my brain is getting bad... :-[
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Aparently George Sr was shot down twice, once as an Ensign and picked up by a destroyer and the second time as a Ltjg when he was picked up by the Finback. The answer for this was posted on Rontini's bbs by another historian
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The website that JT posted had him getting picked up by a destroyer off of ChiChi Jima, if I read it correctly. So, it sounds like the writer of the website and the news anchor both got their events confused. This goes to show you that you have to be careful about what you read and believe when it's posted on the net.
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One of the prices WE have to PAY for playing on our subs (or any historical site) is that we have to be guardians of truth and accuracy... we don't have to hang folks for mistakes, but make some noise to correct things... :knuppel2:
I forgot that Bush did get shot down TWICE!!! So the credit to the DD is OK, but why didn't they make hay out of the fact that he was shot down twice? You know if he were running for office today, they'd make an issue of it!
Interesting case that is related:
I was manning COD's torpedo transporter and Mk. 14 display at the Cleveland Air Show over the weekend (we were parked next the the Marine OSPREY, NEAT!) and some guy comes up to us and slaps the torpedo on the rack of the NAVY truck transporter and declares for all to hear, "We NEVER should have purchased these damn defective torpedoes and those crappy magnetic exploders from the BRITISH before WWII!" He then continued to say how we lost some of our subs because the British tecnology was so bad... At which point I cut him off by saying, even a bit louder than he was talking (because I CAN TALK LOUDER), "You're WRONG, You're WRONG, You're WRONG!!!"
He was a bit suprised by the contrary declaration and responded by reaching into his pocket and pulling out a Zippo lighter and holding it up to my face. One of my fellow COD directors was standing next to me trying to make sense of the guy's odd mistaken history... he broke up when I answered: "I am sorry to see that you smoke!" He answered: "Check out the engraving." It was a set of dolphins with the name of a boomer. I then replied "OK, congratulations, you're a submarine veteran." He said, "Yes, I am a plank owner..." To which I answered, "When did the history of WWII ordinance ever make it into the syllabus at New London?"
In a friendly way (I just didn't want mistaken history to go unchallenged) I provided a brief explanation of our torpedo production and how there was NO exchange of technology between us and the Brits before 1942!
The bad news -- I now had a new friend who we couldn't shake for the next two hours, as he told us countless stories about his days as a pharmacist mate on tin cans and a boomer. :'(
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Sadly history is being rewriten and distorted to "bend" facts. Liberal education (or educators) is making a mockery of what the US has done during its short history. :'(
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It is a growing pscifism that continues in america. We have had things so good for so long that we try to dumb down the realizms of war. We do not want to hear about people getting mamed amd blown apart by 5 in shells. We cannot conseve what being stuck in a POW camp for 4 years with only a rice broth chocked full of insects, and rats (and whatever else was scooped up with the rice)to eat Just go to an average american now days and tell them that there is an acceptable level of roadent hair allwed in their peanut butter. what makes it wors id how the news media "sensationaliist Jurnalism" plays on this.
We as historians have to first accept that were the public is comming from (non-war and non-military). Then we have to try and educate them. Thiw will take some shock and awe reality.
Rick
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The problem with most generations is that they don't know the history of their country. As a result they repeat the mistakes of the past generations over and over again. My biggest fear is that with the downsizing of the American military are we heading for Pearl Harbor II. It could make 9/11 look like a simple street crime. Ahhh, but why worry about that, who would dare strike at America???
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Coming from me, a recent highschool grad, the teachers don't teach it right. While there facts are correct 99% of the time they don't teach it right. They don't get the students involved in it. In a society of internet, cell phones, and learning must be fun, our teachers have stagnated. My 11th grade US History teacher did it best. When we hit WW2 he showed the D-Day landing from Saving Private Ryan. That got everybody pumped, gave them a image to relate to and then the studies began. It got them interested. Thats why interactive museums do so good. It's a simulation.
Another thing is age appropriateness. Adults you can talk about raw war. But I have had little kids, 4-9, ask whats War? Did people die? Did he kill someone? It's very hard to explain to a 4 or 5 year old what War is and not scare them or mess with them. History is difficult to teach.
I guess I'll end the rant now. To make a long post short (too late lol) We have to make it entertaining for the younger crowd. The adults are already into it they are there.
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In the election of 1876, what president was elected in a disputed vote, by loosing the popular vote, but winning the presidency by One electoral vote? And who was his vice president?
Obscure questions on history. But events like this shaped our country. There are so many events that kids today never hear about, or study. Only true history majors may get deep into history. How many even take the time to understand events, tie things together and see how each either helpled or hindered our evolution as a great nation?
Answer Rutherford B. Hayes, 19th president (1877-1881), succeeded US Grant.
VP was William A. Wheeler
I'm not a fan of Hayes, his name just popped into my head reading the last post.
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Well said, John, and so true. I had several history teachers in High School who figured out how to make the classes intersting and engaging.
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Last year, I had a print off of the WWII poster (on my binder) that had the American flag tattered, and it read "We Here Highly Resolve That These Dead Shall Not Have Died In Vain" then at the bottom it said "Remember Dec. 7th." Some kid in my class, who was a senior as well, asked what happened Dec. 7th. One of my friends also had a girl in his class that thought the Flag raising on Suribachi (SP?) was the moonlanding.
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Two very sad examples of today's education system! :'(
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Malls, MTV, and cell phones rule the day. All else is meaningless. Yuppie-dom here we come.
I had a 10th grade history teacher that was absolutely horrible. She took interesting topics like WWI and WWII and made them boring. She just listed a bunch of names, places, and dates on the chalk boards and droned on for 45 minutes every class. We did get to watch a few Victory at Sea episodes, but that was about as good as it got.
That's why I got into WWII reenacting. So, that I could get a much more hands on impression of what really happened. History books in school are practically worthless compared to what you can buy at the book store.
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I hated history until I got out of school...now I'm back in school getting a graduate degree in it.
Irony is so...ironic. :idiot2:
But I hear the same from my kids...history is boring. Like others have said, if the teachers would make it exciting, it may stick with them.
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I hated anything to do with history in high school. I was not interested in history at all!! Why? Because I can't remember names and dates. To this day I have trouble with names and dates. Ask anyone I know.
When I got to college, I had to take a history class as an elective. At the time, I had a choice between "Modern US History" and "Early US History". I went for "Modern US History". My teacher was a red headed man, probably around 30 years old, who was a National Guard recruiter as well. Needless to say, he made history AWESOME for me. We started around WWI and moved forward from there. The testing was still about names and dates and happenings, but he found ways to make the tests out so I couldn't flat out fail if I got some names and dates wrong.
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The thing about history is that it is all around us - we only have to look, listen, visit, and read.
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And remember the old saying about those whom forget the past are doomed to repeat it....
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Oh, so true, Darrin!
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I think the biggest problem, is that new things get added to history books every year, and that they cant go in to depth on everything because they need to teach it all by the end of the year/ semester, Im in U.S. History right now at OSU, and we have to cover from the revolution all the way modern history from August to December.
My AP U.S. History teacher in high school was the best history teacher I have ever had, I had him my freshman year in HS (Western Civilization) then again as a junior (U.S. History). For some of the things he just rambled on dates and names, for things like the industrial revolution, but he would go into depth on alot of stuff, since the book we had did not. When we got to WWI he let us "Play" WWI, he told us to put our desks up in rows on opposite side of the room, to signify the trenches and no mans land, then he told us to get paper and roll it into a ball, the we "fought" with the paper, it was fun. His dad was a member of the 101st Airborne in WWII and was with the Band of Brothers division (502nd PIR?) all the way to the Eagle's nest, so when we got to WWII he knew alot, but we just did not have enough time to go indepth on it before our AP test cause we had to study everything else. I discussed with him the Silent Service in WWII, and he let me do an extra credit Powerpoint on it, and he was really suprised on all the info, cause he had no idea.
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I think the important thing about history is to engage the kids. I can sit and drone on for hours spewing out dates, facts and figures to a bunch of 10 yr olds and get no where, But I garantee that if you find a way to get the kids to spark an emotional response and inviter their opinions, they will suck it up like a sponge.
A good example is how I get the 6-10 yr olds to learn about the heads. I start the tour by asking them if they want to know what a chocolate chip shower is. The will all say yes with enthousiasm. Then they learn what one really is.....
I garantee that these kids will be talking about that fact for months to come.
Rick