Item to swap for 5" gun?

[Mark Sarsfield]

I told them that we have two, but I never mentioned that one was better than the other.  You have the final say.  I was just putting in my 2 cents.

[Tom Bowser]

Ok put the whip away, here are photos of the 5" mount below the deck level
Tom Bowser

[Rick]

Weres all the plumbing.  We have all of the exhaust in the way on the after deck and I know of 4 storage lockers in the forward deck.   

[Tom Bowser]

This is under the forward deck. unfortunately when the Park first got the boat they attacked it with cutting torches and removed almost everything under the deck. The only things left are the engine exhaust valves and the deck gun mounts, I guess they were too big.  One of the people involved I hate to say was a Drum crewman from when it was a reserve boat and the other became the maintance supervisor who retired two years ago and then was rehired as an consultant and he is still there giving suggestions on the batleship to just cut it off and throw it away. Those two did more historical damage to the boat than anyone and I won't let the consultant anywhere near the boat now. I am going to have to make a trip up there one day to see the Batfish.
Tom Bowser

[Paul Farace]

Glad you realized it was at the Sub Base in SAN DIEGO... you go to San Fran and you'll end up with no gun (but flowers in your hair...) 

What does it cost to ship a 7 ton gun? Well if you're lucky, nothing. COD's was delivered one day with 24 hrs notice. Our director kept trying to get a bill for several years and then tried to say thank you to the trucking company for donating the haul from Keyport, WA to Cleveland, OH... finally he was told to "clam up" on the haul -- as in "what haul?"  "We don't know about any stinking hauling of a 7-ton gun!!"  We finally got the idea.

We had an angel with ties to a trucking firm. We have actually had to pay for hauling 40 mm guns... but like the 5 in. gun, there really is no crating involved. The Gun sat on its wide mounting circle with some tie downs, but no structural crating that I recall. I will check with others involved in receiving the gun to confirm this. When you ship items like guns, the trucking company needs to know how to classify the load... apparently there is a big old catalog of categories... and some categories carry special provisions... like the gal on the phone who was all set to give me a price for the 40mm guns I needed to have shipped to COD and was about the quote it on "Guns... operational, military, DoD, ATF-registered" which was about four times the cost of shipping "Guns, ORNAMENTAL."  Later I was told by someone that shipping the damn things as "Scrap metal" would have been even cheaper and involved less paperwork."

If an angel doesn't flutter down on alabaster wings, let me suggest you put the word out among all friends and visitors that you need someone in the interstate trucking/hauling business. Remember, time is on your side.. they can haul it when cheap and convenient since your sub has gone without the gun for so many decades, a few weeks or days will not matter.

Another point I want to make... your 3-in. gun is probably a surface 3-in 50 cal... not the submarine mount. The USN had Nash-Kelvinator Co. make the damn things in the thousands for use on everything from minesweepers to DEs... They were good dual-purpose guns... that is they were rapid firing for surface targets and had the ability to engage aircraft... but another technical innovation, the proximity fused 5-in. round made them all obsolete. So the USN shipped them ashore as fast as they could.  Rather than try and swap, let the vets know what you need.  The decision on what to replace any wet mount gun with at Ballast Point Submarine Base's submarine memorial is up to the NAVY... and they would likely be inclinded to add a more modern reference to the memorial plaza, say a missile body. Again,this is not some Arab camel trading bazaar... but rather a natural and intelligent process by which a lawn ornament finds its way back home where it belongs!  The vets don't own the plaza so design matters will be more in the lap of some NAVY officer than the local vets. But their permission is needed to get the wheels turning. Good luck. It's nice to realize some progress on a process I started over a decade ago.


Paul Farace

[Mark Sarsfield]

Once we rip up the after deck, we'll have a better idea of where this mount might be able to fit.  It's quite possible that we ended up putting the AC units where the mount used to be.  If that's the case, we can still put the gun forward.  There should be plenty of room to get around it on deck and down the FTR stairwell. It's probably a decision that has to be made sooner than later, since we'll be pulling up the forward deck first.

Tom,  What are the rough dimensions of the mount?  Mainly the diameter of the base.

Right now the shipping estimate is $8,700, which includes hauling the 3" gun out to San DIEGO and the 5" back to us.  No crating will be required.  Only tie-downs and a tarp.  I will ask about the scrap metal fees and see if they would be willing to cut us a break, but diesel is pretty pricey. 

I will inform the base and vets that we might/probably have surface ship mounts.  I plan to send them photos, anyway.  If we are lucky, they won't want any of our guns and will prefer to modernize their display, as Paul has suggested.

[Mark Sarsfield]

I just got word from the shippers that you pay for the truckload, regardless of what is classified as being on the truck.  Can't say I blame with with high diesel costs.

It might not be a bad idea to wait until summer is over and hopefully gas prices come down a little.  It may take that long to work this whole deal, anyway.  Ideally, it would be nice to have the mount ready for the gun, so that the crane can install it when the truck arrives.  It will save some money on crane rentals.  Maybe we should pick a target date for fall or next spring.  This will buy us some time to get the boat in order and maybe give the Foundation some time to raise a little cash for this part of the restoration.

[Mark Sarsfield]

Here's an email from Rich Pekelney.  I told him that I think that the Batfish museum has a collection management plan and that the San Diego base was open to giving a deck gun to a sub about 4 years ago as long as the local vets bought into it.  I also told him about our efforts to obtain the battleship mast, the Mk 14 and Mk 27 torpedoes, and the Batfish nuke boat bell.

...I will explain the history, but at this point Pampanito has traded the 4" 50 cal wet mount we got (very interesting story) in the 1980s for a 5" 25 cal missing lots of parts.  So we have a 5" 25 cal and will need to do some replicating of parts that are missing.

Before we made this trade I had twice approached the base commander in an attempt to arrange a trade of the the two guns (to go to ship 
museums) for something else that would replace them at Ballast Point.   
This was key, the base commanders were both OK with the idea of trading the guns but whatever was put in their place had to be appropriate and acceptable to the Sub Vets of WW II.  Of course this would all be administered through the Naval Historical Center once we had agreement in principle.

Has Batfish gotten its collection management plan approved with NHC?   
Back in 1998 Mark Allen, Ken Recoy and I discussed trading an empty TDC Mark IV shell that came with the Roncador conning tower for the 
low pressure blower (or JT Sonar).   We were just talking about the 
possibilities, but since the materials belonged to the Navy they could only be traded with the permission of the NHC.  Batfish did not have an approved collection management plan at the time and therefore was not eligible for additional loans or the transfer.

Take a look at the enclosed photos I shot in Oct last year.  This memorial looks good.  The two flanking guns on the conning tower is pretty nice.  The trick to getting agreement from everybody will be finding something very appropriate that also looks great.  We were considering torpedoes, but we never found the right replacement that would please everyone.  Of course the folks involved have all rotated out and you will have a fresh start.

rich

[MWALLEN]

I told him that I think that the Batfish museum has a collection management plan

As far as I know, one is not in place.  True, Rich and I talked about it, but at that time Ken was top dog on the board and he wanted to handle it within the board...and I don't think it ever got written...handed off to some one else who then dropped it.  We had 2 different volunteers that wanted to write it, but the board at that time told us "no" and that "they'd handle it"...and that's as far as it went.

Rick might know if it ever got written.  If not, it should be a priority after, in not concurrent with, the deck work.

My 2 cents.

[Tom Bowser]

Sorry I was slow getting the measurements for the 5" base for you but I got busy and forgot.

The outside diameter on deck is 57 1/4"
the top ring under the deck is 47"
the center hole is 21"

Do you need more?
Tom Bowser

[Paul Farace]

You get one from someone with a similar ship... you read it carefully, learn from it, ingest it, then you try your best to follow it after you copy it, change the name of said ship and contact people, and then submit it to the NHC.  

PF
 

[Rick]

Yes we do and it is policy as approved by the Muskogee War Memorial Board of Trustees.   

I learned early on that this is very important to our relations with the various organizations out there.  This policy is moldeled after the NHSA guide lies.   IThe policy is available to any whow would like a copy.

Rick

[MWALLEN]

Yes we do and it is policy as approved by the Muskogee War Memorial Board of Trustees.

Outstanding...I was not aware of this.  So now...lets go get some stuff   

[Rick]

We definately are.   

[Paul Farace]

Do I have to put an armed sentry on the COD's brow?


PF