School of the Boat 5 Mar 13 (DC POWER)

[Darrin]

I was hoping that one of our resident Electricians cough Chief Mike cough would have done this block once more because he is very qualified in this area and I am just a TM so this ought to be fun

First things first: How does a submarine generate DC power? and how is it transfered around the submarine?

Good luck, and yes use the Fleet Submarine Manual as we have done in the past and if you have lost the link or never seen the link it is www.hnsa.org

Darrin

[Mark Sarsfield]

The main and auxiliary engines produce DC power.  The main engines can produce 1 million watts per hour and the auxiliary engine can produce 300,000 watts per hour.  The purpose of the auxiliary engine is that it has a "self-exciting" generator.  In other words, it doesn't require an external electrical source to provide it with power in order for it to produce its own power.  The large generators, on the other hand, do require an external power source in order to produce power.  If the batteries were to ever die or become damaged, the auxiliary engine would have to be fired up to produce electricity for the main generators.

The generators on all of the engines are DC generators and they send all of their power to the control cubicle in the Maneuvering room.  From the Maneuvering room, the EM's/ET's can route power to the rest of the boat and to the drive motors for the propellers.  Items that require AC power get their power through the I.C. Switch board in the control room, which in turn gets its AC power from AC generators driven by DC motors - usually located in the pump room.

[Darrin]

Very Good Mark,

However take a boat like the TORSK who's "Dinky" Auxiliary diesel engine was removed during her service life along with other things when they made modifications to the boat... SO with that being said how did she start her engines when they lost shore power and when the batteries were dead or removed? because this is where you may have to go back to the basics of Diesel Engines and how they work especially under "reduced power" situations.

The Torsk was Decommed in 1968 and was used as a trainer in DC until '70 and she had already lost her batteries by then, so how did the Reserve Crews get her engines running once more with no power onboard? and yes if the engines had not been run in a LONG time it did take some DC voltage to make them run once more, and what was the DC voltage used for? and to make this easy the Air Banks were fully charged prior to loosing power.

Did I read it correctly that the Batfish's DC cables are CUT between the Forward and AFT parts of the ship??? no offense but please be VERY dammned careful when working on these systems not only can you hurt or kill someone when powering it up you can burn her to the ground

Jim, If you are the aviation person that I believe you are you may remember the B-29 Kee Bird and how she ended up while trying to be restored....

Darrin

[Mark Sarsfield]

Darrin,

  I believe that the diesels on the boats use air starters.  Did that vintage use glow plugs, too?  I'm leaning toward "no", because of the opposing pistons setup.

  Yes, in one of our engine rooms the thick, heavy power cables that run length-wise through the boat are all missing sections as long as the engine room itself - I don't remember if it's the FER or AER.  Also, most of the big switches and relays inside of the control cubicle are all removed.  The vets that brought her to OK removed that stuff to help pay the bills, because when the Navy sold the boat to the vets, it was still in operational condition, for the most part.  So, assuming that there was still power cables running from the AER to the Maneuvering Room, the Maneuvering Room cubicle would have no way of sending the power to any other part of the boat.  Our control cubicle now looks like one big, open bird cage.  Sad.

[Jim]

Darrin, I remember exactly.  I know some old hands who made a trip or two in the earlier expeditions before there was a "race" to see who could bring her back.  The APU in the tail caught fire and burned the plane to the ground.  They were trying to run it out of a standard gas can with an extended hose.  What a waste.  The book about the expedition is pretty good though.

Mark, its just wire and switches.  Let's make a quick trip to Home Depot.   

[Darrin]

Jim, I was hoping that you knew about the Kee Bird and her makeshift fuel tank/APU that came loose while the crew was hot dogging it while taxi-ing it for the first time in years and yes there is a video of it to include watching her burn to the ground   And there is mixed reasons as to why the Crew Chief had internal bleeding that ultimately caused his death.. One reason was to believe that during a hard landing in the Caribou (barely flight worthy) that the internal load shifted and part of it fell on him and the second opinion is that he worked himself to death in the freezing cold trying to make her fly once more. Either situation is still a tragedy not to mention the loss of the Kee Bird

The only bright points of that lesson is that slower is FASTER and while the crew of the Torsk won't believe me saying this... had the situation been planned out better i.e. had they removed the wings from the fuselage and then transported the whole air frame to the open hanger that was OFFERED to them, the Kee Bird would be flying on it's own once more.. And sadly with the loss of the Kee Bird another B-29 is going to be able to put back into flying order once more..


Mark, the 38 1/8D F/M didn't have glow plugs and yes they were air started and the only real electrical power that was needed would have been for the starting circuit and for the LO pumps assuming the engines hadn't been run in a LONG time and the bearings were bone dry (although not recommended they could start briefly without the LO pumps running)

Ok BATFISH crew, what are you trying to bring back to life once more that requires DC power because a LOT of information is posted online about what the pieces of equipment do and the power requirements for them... if'n ya know where to look that is

[Mark Sarsfield]

The only things that comes to my mind that needs a large DC power source are the grills/ovens... as far as what we want to get operating, again.  Was it you guys that converted your galley to AC power?

[Darrin]

Pamp has had her Galley up and running on special occasions in the past and I don't know what all they truly did to bring theirs back to life..

Did you also mention that the Volunteers own the "title" to the Batfish because if that was truly the case the Navy would have nothing to do with her at all other than to say that yes she was a commissioned warship in the Navy from 194?-19?? and there are only 3 former US Navy warships that hold that distinction here in the US and one is the USS Slater, USS Razorback and the LST-325.

The idea was brought up on the Torsk a number of years ago about bringing the Galley back to life and has not been brought up in a long time, than again I have not been on the boat in almost 2 years

Darrin

[Mark Sarsfield]

I've heard both stories on the Batfish:  1) that the vets bought her and the OK Maritime Commission is the sole owner and, contradistinctively, 2) the Navy still owns her and can take her back at any time.  #2 is what Rick told me a few weeks ago.

Okay.  It was probably Pamp or even Cod or Cobia that have their galleys running and, most likely, on AC power.  I think maybe Silversides does, too, but I want to say that they have an industrial DC rectifier supplying power to a lot of DC circuits.

[Jim]

I'll interject some aircraft Lore.  The Navy NEVER relinquishes title.  The boats that were sold out of the navy are probably the ONLY things that could be privately held.  They recovered a Hellcat off the botom of Lake Michigan and it became a court battle.  The guy says "I found it"  and the Navy says "still ours, we knew it was somewhere down there".  This has happened on MANY occasions with aircraft and I don't see the navy, whose life is boats, changing for that.

[Darrin]

Mark,

Contact Tim Rizzuto on the USS Slater because they use their stoves, ovens every month and I believe they are on DC power and they have had to bring her back to life from a WWII DE to a Greek DE back and then back to her US Navy WWII standards... You would be amazed at their online publication "slater signals" as to how far she has come in the last 10 years.

The other one to contact is Rich Pekelney on the Pamp, I used to know a few volunteers whom posted on multiple submarine bbs' over the years and sadly they have passed way too early

The only other one that I can think of off the top of my head that does use hers from time to time is the USS LST-325 when they have work parties onboard and when they got to SEA, yes she still sails a couple of times a year and yes she was also brought back from Greece and is now a show boat that looks like she did in the 40's and a few years ago Hollywood tried to hire her to sail to be in a couple of movies "flags of our fathers" and "letters from Iwo"  And currently she is AT SEA after going through a shipyard period and is sailing back home on her OWN power.

http://lstmemorial.org/

[Darrin]

Jim,

When a Navy vessel is "stricken" from the Navy's list especially when they are sold/given to a foriegn country the Navy no longer has much to say about them (i.e USS Trout, sold to Iran and then kept when a small little war started and then finally scrapped her a few years ago in Texas, even though she was fully sea worthy and museum quality).. With aircraft there is different because they are small and from time to time they have been known to do the "we want that back now" due to it being one or two of the last known kind in existance..

The Army Air Corps/ Air Farce, has been known to write off aircraft that have crashed and no longer want anything to do with them... HOWEVER they did wind up taking back the "Memphis Belle" from Memphis due to the lack of maintenance/restoration and then moved her to Wright Patterson AFB in Dayton, Oh to be fully restored and put on display once more in a "proper" museum setting and not just underneath a big tent

Darrin

[Mark Sarsfield]

Thanks, Darrin.  Rich and I chat on occasion in emails.  He doesn't get to post much on here.

[Jim]

Rich is a great guy and a wealth of info.  I have a 500 gig drive in my possesion from Rich that has all of Pamp's drawings on it.  I am helping him to identify them and label them for faster searches (I am hoping this pays off for Bat stuff I am searching for).  

Funny that you should mention the Belle.  Did some work on the "movie Belle" back in the day.  The real Belle was never really stricken but LOANED to the city of Memphis for display.  NEXT TO WATER.  IN AN OPEN TENT. BIRDS...!!!  As a historical landmark it really did need some attention.  It was/is a political thing with certain generals as well.

Go here for lots of squak on birds.  http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/ Or WIX for short.  I frequented there a lot before Gary passed.  After that, it wasn't the same working on the old birds.

I hope that this site can become similar to that.  We would be SIX.    

[Thomas]

Mark,

Contact Tim Rizzuto on the USS Slater because they use their stoves, ovens every month and I believe they are on DC power and they have had to bring her back to life from a WWII DE to a Greek DE back and then back to her US Navy WWII standards... You would be amazed at their online publication "slater signals" as to how far she has come in the last 10 years.

Far from Every Month!! - Every Satuday & Monday which are the two Big Volunteer Days (Exepct for this winter due the forward expansion joint being replaced) they are used for Chow which is just 2 or $3 on Average! And I could easily be wrong but I think they are AC since when they tired to run the 24" Carbon Arc Searchlight in Nov 2012 it was a joint effort with the engineers using the 8 Cyl Ships Service Generator to create the DC power for the Searchlight so based that is why I think they are AC power. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1anYB4cLl3I Video Of the 8 Cyl Generator Running for those intrested by the way.

& This video I put together sums up the progress that we have done since she has returned from Greece with before & affter views of most of the major compartments onboard - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hHgCbRh588


P.S Sorry about Derailing this thread with Slater Stuff!