Author Topic: Where money in USSVI is going. Not to Museum boats!!!  (Read 27969 times)

Offline Viejo

  • On Eternal Patrol 12/10/12
  • Petty Officer 2nd Class
  • *
  • Posts: 203
  • Total BZs: 6
    • View Profile
    • Lockwood Internet Base
Where money in USSVI is going. Not to Museum boats!!!
« on: June 13, 2008, 05:16:31 AM »
I recently saw a 60 day chart of money coming in to USSVI for the different parts of our Charitable Fund.  I won't copy it all here, but those of you who are associated with base/chapters in USSVI, might want to alert other members about what is a long term trend and getting worse of giving almost all money to scholarships, so some granddaughter of a member can have a few bucks for college. Here is the url. Anyone can read on this Base Officers BBS and most anyone that wanted to post and was a member of USSVI could probably be allowed to. What makes it even worse is that USSVI is in the process of going after some big bucks from people and the greatest majority of that will be going to the scholarship fund. Right now about $50,000 every year comes in for scholarships. Less than $500 for Museum Boats and Memorials and most of that goes to Memorials. You guys that are members of USSVI need to encourage your base officers to read and post here. And convince them to say something about this.
Here is the url
Bill    :'(
http://www.baseofficerbb.us/BBS/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=632&posts=5
“Keep the memory of the USS Scorpion SSN-589 and its crew alive"
http://www.decklog.com/SSN-589.asp

Offline Lance Dean

  • USS Drum Fan
  • Forum Administrator
  • Chief Petty Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 1537
  • Total BZs: 10
  • John calls me "Gunner"
    • View Profile
    • My website
Re: Where money in USSVI is going. Not to Museum boats!!!
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2008, 08:50:00 AM »
 :o

Stickied this topic.

I really have no authority to even speak on this subject, but I agree with you 100% Bill.  The scholarship fund was always a HUGE priority for the USSVWWII, maybe that is why it's so big in the USSVI today?  I think with some awareness the priority could be shifted easily.  It is all about majority rules.

Thanks Bill. 

Offline Paul Farace

  • USS Cod Volunteer
  • Chief Petty Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 572
  • Total BZs: 12
    • View Profile
Re: Where money in USSVI is going. Not to Museum boats!!!
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2008, 10:33:46 AM »
Wow, $50K a year?  That would provide two boats with some big help... or one boat could get painted and sandblasted over an 18-month period... etc., etc. It might also provide shipping for 7-ton guns, paint, new decking materials, replication of builder's plaques (had to get my own idea in), fabrication of bunks, bunk bags, etc., etc., etc., (God, I love "The King and I"  --  but you know, the SVWWII never did anything with real benefit to the memorial boats, and so far, USSVI hasn't either. I will not hold my breath over this issue.

But someone should go to the annual meeting and make a request for a straw pole!

 :-X
PF
Johnny Cash's third cousin, twice removed

Offline Rick

  • Former Director, Muskogee War Memorial
  • Chief Petty Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 815
  • Total BZs: 5
    • View Profile
Re: Where money in USSVI is going. Not to Museum boats!!!
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2008, 11:01:14 AM »
I shouldn't say this,  but I am in a contancarous mood today and will. 

It seems to me that most of the old sub vets got these subs for their own personal play grounds.   They had this big idea that the would be able to take an old boat and plop id down somewere and the masses would pay hand over fist to come and see it and the various sub org's would make loads of money so they can continue to have their conventions and what not. However as time moved on and the sub vets started to disapear the the club houses became just what they were.  An exclusive club for a dwindiling membership left to be neglected for all time.   

Whit that siad.  The subvets did give us a wonderful treasure that everyone should share.   There is interest out there and these places can be real money makers.   We (subvets and care takers) all have to realize that times are changing.   People are not so quick to join exclusive fraternities andymore.  Most people in their 30's do not have the time and money to be running all over the country just to hang out wiht Joe Smith that served on my boat back the same I did.   Though this is nice,  times are hard and we cannot afford these luxuries. 

The long and the short of it is that the USSVI needs to decide if the subs are what they really want to invest in.  If not get out and leave us (the care takers alone).  If they do want to be involved start putting up some effort (money, time, materials) and lets us (the care takers) make these things fly.   

This is just one mans oppinion and I do not mean to disrespect our subvets.  I cannot thank them enough for what they did.  This goes for the past and the present sub vets both.  I have full intentions of attending the convention in Fort Worth this year.  We (the boats) have an open invite to help with the submarine museums booth.  I think we all need to take part.  If we want to the USSVI to start taking us seriously we need to do this and make it an every year deal. 


Thank you for listening.
If you agree feel free to contact me Rick Dennis....

If you do not agree.  Lance Dean will be happy to take your complaints..... ;D

Offline Paul Farace

  • USS Cod Volunteer
  • Chief Petty Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 572
  • Total BZs: 12
    • View Profile
Re: Where money in USSVI is going. Not to Museum boats!!!
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2008, 02:00:05 AM »
Yea, one of the hardest things to deal with in this business is the fact that the submarine veterans are my heroes. But sometimes you have to ask them to put a sock in it and get out of the way.   :-*    -- so that we can do our job and make sure the memorial boats tell their story!  Kinda ironic, to say the least.

As an organization, the USSVI, IMHO, needs to decide once and for all if they want to benefit the memorial boats in a significant way, or clam-up and play at being sub vets -- status quo. Until that happens, my snappiest salute will be to Tin Can Sailors Association, then to DESA (a distant second).

Going deeeeeep!

PF
Johnny Cash's third cousin, twice removed

Offline Darrin

  • USS Torsk Volunteer
  • Chief Petty Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 1289
  • Total BZs: 17
  • School of the Boat Guru
    • View Profile
Re: Where money in USSVI is going. Not to Museum boats!!!
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2008, 03:05:11 AM »
Paul,
you don't have to go deep on that one, hell run a "full on 4" bell and enjoy the scenery topside as the Fairbanks/Morse LOVE to be run hard.. I was a member of USSVI until I got out in '94 and the only thing that they ever wanted from me was money, money for this and that and when I told the rep that I was getting out before the Submarine Ball he still asked me for money so someone else could go in my place if I couldn't make it back to Pearl in time...

What I have seen and heard from a few different museums is that USSVI doesn't want to work on the boats they just want to tell old sea stories and if they are lucky on or two of their members will volunteer at a local museum submarine and stay there..

To me I would rather donate my money to a boat that is in need then some organization that is built on remembering our submarine heritage but has no use in restoring our heritage..

Me... I am running all ahead 1/3 on the surface on this issue and there isn't anyone that will change my mind, many have tried but none have convinced me to return.

Darrin

Offline emeacho

  • USS Torsk Volunteer
  • Petty Officer 2nd Class
  • *
  • Posts: 188
  • Total BZs: 4
    • View Profile
Re: Where money in USSVI is going. Not to Museum boats!!!
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2008, 12:55:16 PM »
Seems like a lot of submarine veteran bashing is going on.  I understand that a lot of it is directed at the USSVI, but I also hear a lot of bashing toward submarine vets in general.  The Torsk, which was left to deteriorate for many, many years by the civilian operators in Baltimore, has been completely turned around by a group consisting of many sub vets and several sub lovers.  We have done this with a lot of blood, sweat and tears.  Our local USSVI base has contributed to the cause as have several other sub bases around the country.  So, where you may be correct that your local efforts are not aided by and possibly interfered with by some sub vets, please speak for yourselves.  Without sub vets, Torsk would still be a dark, empty tube preparing to sink into the inner harbor of Baltimore.

Offline Viejo

  • On Eternal Patrol 12/10/12
  • Petty Officer 2nd Class
  • *
  • Posts: 203
  • Total BZs: 6
    • View Profile
    • Lockwood Internet Base
Re: Where money in USSVI is going. Not to Museum boats!!!
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2008, 01:24:38 PM »
emeacho,
Thanks for your defense of subvets and the organization.  I debated when I put up the first post on this subject if it wouldn't draw some negative comments about USSVI from some. However, I wanted to encourage you guys who do work with both the boats and USSVI to let your bases, DCs, and so forth know that we need to put more importance on the museum boats when we are considering where to spend money. I hoped that explaining how we need to shift the empasis of where the money is going would not be construed as encouraging others to bash USSVI.
It is very easy for those who aren't members and those who only look at isolated incidents to assume that the organization is not for this or that.  The truth is that USSVI has to be very careful when it approaches anything like the museum boats, because they do have no say in what goes on with them and also the national organization doesn't get involved with what a base does on the local level unless they are asked to help out.
The Pampanito is a good example of where we actually have National officers trying to work things out and help out with those running the boat and then have others who don't undersand everything involved complaining and causing the problems.
Each boat has a different relationship with those subvets around, but I think most all of them like to have people come help out who are there for that purpose and not to try and decide how things should be run. Certainly the Torsk, Drum, Batfish, Cavalla, Cod, and others have used and want to have subvets around. The Pampanito has some who help out and they are appreciated. Same with the Silversides and in the past the Growler. As you guys work more together and show how that can help all with thier boats, hopefully we'll get some of these other museum boats to start posting here and gaining from this site.
You are exactly right that what is always wrong is to make generalized statements against some group and this is usually done by those who haven't taken the time to really get to know the group.
The whole reason this forum is here is because one guy who had a love for subs and wanted to help out, put in countless hours getting these pages up and running and getting people involved in using these pages. He is one of the most valued members of his USSVI LIB Base and we fully support him and what he is doing as we do all museum boats. I happen to also be on the national  board of USSVCF which is not at all  important in itself, but it does mean that I can look at things from some different levels and knowledge at times.
So anything we as an organization can do to help, please let me know and I'll try and get it done. And thanks for your comments to show where responsibillity really needs to lie.
Viejo
“Keep the memory of the USS Scorpion SSN-589 and its crew alive"
http://www.decklog.com/SSN-589.asp

Offline Paul Farace

  • USS Cod Volunteer
  • Chief Petty Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 572
  • Total BZs: 12
    • View Profile
Re: Where money in USSVI is going. Not to Museum boats!!!
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2008, 03:09:28 PM »
I for one am not basing USSVI...
I've been trying to offer some constructive criticism on how an organization that says it is dedicated to preserving its heritage, can do so in what I think is a very effective manner.  USSVI is a bunch of people... and people are not perfect. No one on the staff of submarine memorials (be they paid in cash or paid in self satisfaction) wants the vets out of the picture. But the sad fact is, the revese is not true!!!  I have been told many times by several subvets that they do not like the fact that "their boats" are in the hands of civilians who have no military experice!!!!!  Now I understand this is not a universal attitude, but it is prevelent across the nation and has gone on for decades!

And to clarify a point about the TORSK... it was run in the 1970s by a WWII subvet who was employed by a department of the city. He had no knowledge of historical preservation and saw the boat as a veteran's clubhouse and children's fun activity. When he retired, the city (rightly) turned it over to an outfit that ran maritime education programs. To give her in the City Parks department would have been criminal.

The truth of the matter is that over the decades that submarines have been in the hands of memorial foundations (DRUM was first, in 1969, I believe), there was generally no problems as long as the Vets could hold functions aboard the boats... Silversides was the first, and for a long time, only boat that had a group interested in restoring her. They were a mix of sub vets and a few civilians. And they did good -- getting her engines running, etc. But they were a club house operation. When the need for proper management surfaced, they were not able to handle it and so SS 236 was turned over to new, civilian management.


You can break up the subs into several basic categories:

1. boats that are part of a multi-ship park.  -- Problem:  the subs get the short end of the funding stick. Vets hold functions aboard, but see them deteriorating.

2. boats that are part of an educational facility (science center/maritime museum), like Pampanito, Blueback, Requin, Becuna, Cobia, U-505.  -- Problem: again, they have to compete for funding, often the funds they are generating. Benefits: when they do get attention of a curator or manager, they make important strides (Pampanito and Cobia are good examples)... Vets are honored and perform ceremonies, but work is done within a framework set by the stewards.  And interest and ability among the staff is more important than whether the person wears "phins."  This has sometimes been a cause of friction. Not always, but sometimes.

3. transitional boats -- boats that were "saved" by veterans groups, but ultimately failed for various reasons and were transferred to other stewards: Requin, Cavalla, Croaker are chief among these. Most were heart-breaks until they came under new management, one still is.

4. single memorial boats -- Albacore, Cod, Razorback, Batfish, Ling.  Include the best and worst boats, generally. When run as businesses and national treasures they thrive. When run as veterans clubhouses, they fail. Can't speak for all, but many in this class have had to set subvet groups straight about which is the dog, and which is the tail (as in the tail should not wag the dog). 

Enough of the categorization.
I can speak directly about COD.

We went through several phases and I have been there for all of them, from the start (1976)

... the first was when our civilian leadership (acutally a composite of submarine vet officers and civilians) let a group of local Subvet WWII run the daily operation for them... Cod was a subvet clubhouse. She deteriorated badly (well not as bad as some since we were in fresh water, thankfully).  Volunteers were told to go away, this was a subvet operation only. When subvets showed up to help, they were often told they were not needed (seen as threats by the subvet shipkeepers)...

Phase two:  Thanks to several factors, including HNSA and my divorce  :buck2:, Cod begins to adpot curatorial standards and the transition begins from things being done on a whim by subvets to being done to follow a master plan of restoration.  Call this phase:  World War THREE!!!   Yes, it was ugly and sad.
Frustration at stratoshperic levels as the subvet ship keepers actually sabotaged work done by civilians. Again,this was not a SubVet sanctioned vendetta, but rather a clash of people, individuals, and a lack of complete leadership from above. Cod saw more combat during this phase than at any time since 1944! 
Time, old age, and persistence won out. Not results! Visitors would commend the shipkeepers on the improvement to Cod and they would grumble and try to erase them when they had the chance!  To those who say I'm a hot-blooded Scicilian, I say, I didn't kill anyone!  :knuppel2: Again, some challenging moments.  But during this time a few civilian volunteers began to come forward to help the lone civilian crewmember (me).

Phase three:  today, everyone understands that stewardship of the boat is in civilian hands and under the direction of a curator. The subvets of WWII are not happy (as a group) with the fact that they do not run the boat.  Non-dolphin crewmembers skyrocket (hey when you go from one to 10, that's a skyrocket).  More work gets done than at any other time. USSVI Cod Base was formed. Among them are a few WWII vets -- some WWII and younger vets  have a hard time accepting the fact that non-qual non-military types run the boat.  Again, its a matter of personalities... some are ok with things, others find it makes them mad...  I've been dealing with bad subvet attitudes for 32 years... and I've been blessed with the friendship of subvets with good attitudes... but sadly, a human generally has a more dramatic reaction to getting hit with baseball bats for 32 years than getting kisses!  I still have a tendency to cringe among subvets and prepare to defend myself.  That's my problem... just explaining things in the hopes that it might be helpful to others and cathardic to me!

PF
Johnny Cash's third cousin, twice removed

Offline Darrin

  • USS Torsk Volunteer
  • Chief Petty Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 1289
  • Total BZs: 17
  • School of the Boat Guru
    • View Profile
Re: Where money in USSVI is going. Not to Museum boats!!!
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2008, 06:04:07 PM »
Folks,

While I am ABSOLUTELY guilty for bashing USSVI for many many years it is time for me to lay down the hatchet, because in part of efforts of Don Gentry, Ron Martini, Chief Mike, John Bay and many many others  to include the crew members of Torsk and these bbs's that we have called home for a number of years.. Have I done harm to USSVI and to it's image??? maybe and for many years I did not care especially when I started working on Torsk and there for a while I didn't know that we had that many USSVI folks onboard as we do and I guess will always feel like they are not represented well on these boats and that still hurts, but not as much as when I hear about other boats who have asked for help and got little response for help. With that being said I can not blame those who are apart of USSVI and not wanting to go and field day a submarine that they didn't serve on let alone one that has been left to rot for many years.

The task of restoring Torsk has been a daunting task that has been taken on by a great crew that while it has changed a little over the years we still have the same drive and motivation of when TVA started 10 years ago and now things come in leaps and bounds instead of small victories that we now take for granted, I should mention that from what I was told when TVA took over that there was no power running through her wiring and there were drop lights strung throughout the boat and the A/C or what they used for A/C and heat was laughable. Now most of the boat runs the way that it is supposed to work though the correct wiring and that alone is a true testimate to Chief Mike and to Dave Thames and others who have spent more hours then I would like to count in getting her back in order.

Am I going to stop bashing USSVI?? yes... VIEJO if you would can you please send me the paperwork to join LIB??  I know now that it is time to bury that hatchet once and for all and try to help other submarine veterans save these boats instead of just trying to save one. I am sure that if you ask Chief Mike and others who serve on Torsk who have been to my home they can vouch that I really am submarine qualified and they have seen my qual card and a couple of the pics that I have from the USS Honolulu (SSN 718) from my tenure from '91-'94.

I do have to apologize for bashing USSVI on this and other bbs's in the last few years for what I saw as a organization that did not want to restore our boats and they just wanted to do just about everything else other then that.

Darrin

Offline Viejo

  • On Eternal Patrol 12/10/12
  • Petty Officer 2nd Class
  • *
  • Posts: 203
  • Total BZs: 6
    • View Profile
    • Lockwood Internet Base
Re: Where money in USSVI is going. Not to Museum boats!!!
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2008, 06:45:44 PM »
Darrin, I'll be glad to email you an application you can filll in the blanks while looking at the page  online and email to our treasure, or just print it out and send with your check..
It takes a big man to say he has been wrong and a bigger one to do something about it.  I, like others started complaining about things I saw in USSVI after I joined, but then figured that the best way to fix them was to find the solution and go do it and in the process have made a lot of friends both up and down the ladder. 
When you come aboard and you are welcome to go read our BBS and look at the homepage now,  http://lockwoodbase.com/home.asp
 you'll find that while I shoot off my mouth a lot, I only get a little testy when people start up the reg. vs associate or the nuc vs db type conversations. One of the people that you have had run ins with over on one of the other boards, joined up again a few months ago and started up with that and I tried to explain nicely why we didn't do that at LIB. John Bay, who by the way is a close friend of mine, also tried to help him, but he ended up with his feelings hurt and so doesn't grace us with his presence. 
At LIB we have one type of members. LIB members, the rest is unimportant. I have never asked for and never intend to ask for someone to prove they were on a sub. Can't imagine anyone wanting to say they were if they weren't. When they are like Lance, they say they aren't and then go out and do more than a lot of the regular members, so we all get along fine and try to get a lot done.
So welcome aboard. We will be glad to have you. I'll get that application out to you tonight.  The nice thing about our online base is that we have members from around the world and they can keep up with what is happening and besides the cost to drive to a meeting is much less. LOL
Viejo,  aka Bill Lee
“Keep the memory of the USS Scorpion SSN-589 and its crew alive"
http://www.decklog.com/SSN-589.asp

Offline Darrin

  • USS Torsk Volunteer
  • Chief Petty Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 1289
  • Total BZs: 17
  • School of the Boat Guru
    • View Profile
Re: Where money in USSVI is going. Not to Museum boats!!!
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2008, 07:50:01 PM »
Thanks Bill for the kind words and for sending me the application,
me and the "horsefly" have been battling on and off on 4 different bbs's for years and right now I don't care for him as a shipmate but I no longer stay mad very long at people especially those who have ridden the boats. John pointed me a while ago to the LIB bbs and I have been looking at it on and off for the last couple of days and I do like the way that it is set up and the way that things are run there in LIB.

As far as the assc vs reg member that is a moot point to me because of the folks on Torsk, IF you are willing to come to the boat and work and not set there and tell sea stories all day you are fine by me and while I used to bash DBF folks also it took a Torsk member who is a member here now to just blatently tell me to "put up or shut up" while on the other bbs's and that is when I went to my first work weekend and honestly I haven't looked back other then to say that I wished that I would have done this sooner.

Chief Mike has at times had to remind us that we are one crew on one boat and we need to refocus and get back together in line or else... Every organization has internal squabbles and it takes a strong leader to iron them out before they run rampant and from what I have seen Bill you have done that also with LIB and I welcome that.

I have been in the military on and off now for 18 years and I have seen a number of people who claim to be something that they are not and I don't care for those folks and honestly because of those folks I have been known to tell about my military career as my resume when talking to people who don't care one bit or another, and a few have asked why I have done that because they believe me from word go and I have to tell them because of the folks who have claimed to be something that they are not and I don't want them to ever believe that I am one of those folks.

Hopefully tonight I will get the application filled out and send the treasurer a online check so that I can start to contribute to the rest of the boats and not just Torsk.

Darrin

Offline Lance Dean

  • USS Drum Fan
  • Forum Administrator
  • Chief Petty Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 1537
  • Total BZs: 10
  • John calls me "Gunner"
    • View Profile
    • My website
Re: Where money in USSVI is going. Not to Museum boats!!!
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2008, 08:01:00 PM »
Well, I should say welcome to LIB Darrin.   :)

Offline Viejo

  • On Eternal Patrol 12/10/12
  • Petty Officer 2nd Class
  • *
  • Posts: 203
  • Total BZs: 6
    • View Profile
    • Lockwood Internet Base
Re: Where money in USSVI is going. Not to Museum boats!!!
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2008, 08:07:39 PM »
Darrin, I thank you in turn for the kind words. I am really lucky with LIB as we have several members who have been there from the beginning and I just sort of open and close the meetings and keep people updated while some others do most of the work. Not sure what an online check is unless you are talking about Paypal and we had to quit using them because of some problems we had with them. But however you and Bob want to work it is fine with me.
Soon as Bob gets your app.,  I'll wake John Bay up as he is the guy that does the welcoming on the BBS and please don't forget about the pictures, one of you in a sailor suit I hope. LOL
By the way, any and all of you guys are sure welcome to join LIB also. The more the merrier. Might even give a discount to any who join from Lance's forum. We did that once for the guys from the Robert E. Lee and had a few join that way. 
Thanks again,
Billl
“Keep the memory of the USS Scorpion SSN-589 and its crew alive"
http://www.decklog.com/SSN-589.asp

Offline Rick

  • Former Director, Muskogee War Memorial
  • Chief Petty Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 815
  • Total BZs: 5
    • View Profile
Re: Where money in USSVI is going. Not to Museum boats!!!
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2008, 11:16:25 PM »
Paul,
Thank you for helping clairify.  The Batfish is definately in phase 2.  To add to the confusion we are in a phase one cmmunity.  Oi Vey...... :uglystupid2:
And, do not feel bad about being a hot blooded italian.  Tangle with us  Germains once (with a smal amount of irish)..... :idiot2:

With that said.   I clearly speak from my personal experiences with my local chapter and individuals in my community.   I have seen so much heart ace here and petty bickering over this thing.   (I will have to tell you about the paint job we had instore fro us 2 years ago).  This petty bickering combined with heavy work loads and low pay helped this park go through 3 managers in as many years  (fortunately mgr #3 was chained to his desk and given bread and water as a pay increase).  In the end I still love them all sub vets and the veteraisn orgs that they belong to.  Without them we would not be here.   

I still hold to what I said however.  I am not s submariner or even Navy.  I am a Zoomie and proud of it.  I am here for the boat and the military history that she represents.  I will do whatever it takes to help things along.   This includes telling someone something that they do not like to hear.  (I would hope you all do the same for me) These subs are treasures.that deserve to be protected and shared.  We need to keep these boats and keep them proudly. 

I think the Marines said it best.....
Lead, Follow, or get out of the way.....

So please do not think anything I said was ment to bash the Sub Vets or the USSVI.   Do take my observations for what they are observations made here in OK.  Take my comments for what they are intended for.   Stir up some action where there was inaction, and pride where there was non.....